Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
Cel - How does the description of the Agitated Chamber (thanks for posting the actual text, Bullgrit) gel with your earlier claim that there is no unavoidable randomness in ToH?
Tomb of Horrors - example of many, or one of a kind?
Yeah, right*.
Please note how I didn't claim the ToH was "unfair".
I, personally, think "fair" and "unfair" don't usually apply to adventure design, unless you view GMing a module as a testing procedure. Now, as a tournament piece, that's what ToH was initially designed to be, and so the question is relevant for that context, but then it is really more one of how easy the module is to adjudicate similarly across several judges, and less about the content itself. And I think there's a great question to be asked into what, exactly, they're testing for with this one.
be that as it may, I usually approach GMing from the perspective of trying to give my players a good time. It isn't a question of fairness, but of funness (which is, of course, subjective).
I'll accept that to any standard you, RC, personally find reasonable, the ToH is fair. I cannot argue with that, and wouldn't want to. I'll even accept it, knowing that, really, you're casting a personal judgement on standards before you even hear them. That's your choice to make.
But, unless you pass around the memo showing that you finally got the promotion to Ultimate Arbiter of Reasonableness you've been bucking for, this is an appeal to personal authority without support. It comes out as just another variation on the, "If you don't agree with me your mental process are inferior to mine**," form of argument.
As always, it's kind of insulting. Thanks, but no thanks.
*Arthur Dent, technically, had the means to determine that his house was going to be demolished for a bypass. You may decide for yourself if he was treated fairly.
**Including, but not limited to: you are stupid, naive, ignorant, crazy, fanboi, hater... and just plain unreasonable.
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Raven Crowking
First Post
Celebrim
Legend
Posting without spoiler tags is very bad form.
Area 21 is in my opinion the second most lethal trap in the dungeon behind only
.
Getting through that room without losing half the party is difficult but achievable.
So, for example:
Area 21 is in my opinion the second most lethal trap in the dungeon behind only
the sleeping gas / juggernaut trap
Getting through that room without losing half the party is difficult but achievable.
So, for example:
1) Remember how I said that flight negates most of the traps in the dungeon? A flying party can traverse this room without incident. More practically, the scout can be made to fly ahead, find the door and hold the curtains aside so that everyone else can cross in relative safety. This assumes of course that the party has figured out that the curtains are dangerous for some reason, but by this point usually parties paranoidly are assuming everything is dangerous.
2) The green slime is far more dangerous than the brown mold. Burning the tapestries is a risky but still viable plan, both because 4d8 damage is survival and the green slime is instant death in this case, but because the text specifically says that the range of the cold is only 5'. So the slime can be burned out of the tapestries, and then the mold dealt with afterwards by whatever means available.
2) The green slime is far more dangerous than the brown mold. Burning the tapestries is a risky but still viable plan, both because 4d8 damage is survival and the green slime is instant death in this case, but because the text specifically says that the range of the cold is only 5'. So the slime can be burned out of the tapestries, and then the mold dealt with afterwards by whatever means available.
Celebrim
Legend
a) Presents no hazard.
b) As much time as the players desire can be spent on figuring out how to open it.
c) Detect magic is a logical recourse when you can't figure something out.
d) There is a gem of true seeing placed in the dungeon which a clever party might fine.
e) There is nothing random about it.
Bullgrit
Adventurer
But there are plenty of examples in D&D adventures of valuable/magical things hidden by invisibility, and dirty things that can be cleaned up to value or magic.
This is sort of my point: There are many examples both ways – things you shouldn’t mess with, and things you should mess with. And often there is no clue for which is the right action: leave it alone, or investigate it.
Elven cloaks are found in piles of rags.
Yellow mold is found in piles of rags.
A dirty-looking item is coated in contact poison.
A dirty-looking item can be cleaned up to be valuable.
Any of the items above are not bad design, per se. But the lack of *any* clue, or especially the existence of a misleading clue, does make for bad design – unless you think requiring 50/50-chance guesses are good design. What makes things bad for discussions on this subject are when people claim that making the wrong/bad decision – based on *no* clue – means the Player is not good or skilled.
If you search the pile of rags and find an elven cloak: Skilled Player!
If you search the pile of rags and set off the mold: Poor Player!
Skilled or Poor claim based on nothing but a blind action by the Player. What if the Player rolled a die to make the decision?
Bullgrit
Celebrim
Legend
a) The pit traps are obviously survivable, and by design some of the least dangerous traps in the whole tomb. The purpose of the pit traps is to convey, "Ok, watch out. This place is serious.", before you encounter the really lethal stuff.
b) An experienced party that falls into a pit trap is being very unwary. There are any number of countermeasures: flight, summoned creatures, throwing a weight ahead of you, probing with a long pole, etc. Experienced parties just don't fall into pit traps at any time that they are expecting a trap.
c) A party of any degree of experience that falls into more than one pit trap is being unwary.
Bullgrit
Adventurer
And what party would open the door and think, "Let's cast fly on everyone"?
It's like you're looking at a maze from above instead of from inside it. The guy actually walking in the maze doesn't know the exit is "right there, just around that next turn." And he doesn't know that there is a pit trap, "right there, just around the other turn."
You're saying to the other observers, "This is easy. All he has to do is turn right and walk 20 more feet. He'll come to the exit."
But the maze-walker has no clues to guide him, and when he walks around the left corner and falls in the trap, you say, "Well, he's just not a skilled maze walker."
Bullgrit
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I think you're going to have to learn to lighten up on a lot of this. Some people actually feel that this stuff was pretty brilliant, every bit as brilliant as the things you thought classic. Should they shut up in these discussions? I don't think so. You've got to let stuff you disagree with not bother you or present your counterarguments with a cool head.
That said, I think you're spot on with the spoilers. If a movie is over a year old and I haven't seen it, I am not going to hold anybody accountable for spoiling it for me.
~ spoilers removed - because some of those WILL spoil things for some people. I'd not seen Orient Express until last Christmas, and I'd have been mightly annoyed to have had that spoiled on an RPG site.
Memo to everyone - post spoilers, but either use [ spoiler ] tag or [ sblock ] tag please. Plane Sailing ~
EDIT: I just stumbled back on this. And I'm not going to use spoiler blocks on a 35 year old movie. Are we supposed to still use spoiler blocks on Vader being Luke's father? How about soylent green being people? The planet of the apes being Earth?
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Celebrim
Legend
Spoilers follow:
a) An experienced party will probably not send everyone in to the room in the first place until someone goes to check it out.
b) An experienced party will have tested the ceiling with a 10' pole before entering the room. This is standard operating procedure when a ceiling is concealed because generally speaking ceilings are only concealed for a reason. Green slime, trappers, or any other number of hazards should have taught this long before you attempt ToH.
c) 5d50 damage averages 27 hit points lost. This is likely lethal only to the M-U.
d) A really good party will uncover all three entrances before choosing which to investigate. With all three entrances uncovered, it's pretty clear which represents the best prospect.
e) After failing at this entrance, the party can recover from their lesson as long as they like, probably just a night or two at this level of play.
f) These sort of surivable traps help ensure the party is taking the dangers seriously before getting to the really lethal stuff. Actually, the other false entrance is a lot worse and would have made your attempted point a lot better.
b) An experienced party will have tested the ceiling with a 10' pole before entering the room. This is standard operating procedure when a ceiling is concealed because generally speaking ceilings are only concealed for a reason. Green slime, trappers, or any other number of hazards should have taught this long before you attempt ToH.
c) 5d50 damage averages 27 hit points lost. This is likely lethal only to the M-U.
d) A really good party will uncover all three entrances before choosing which to investigate. With all three entrances uncovered, it's pretty clear which represents the best prospect.
e) After failing at this entrance, the party can recover from their lesson as long as they like, probably just a night or two at this level of play.
f) These sort of surivable traps help ensure the party is taking the dangers seriously before getting to the really lethal stuff. Actually, the other false entrance is a lot worse and would have made your attempted point a lot better.
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