Off to War - canceled

Herobizkit said:

What's a WBL?

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Term for Wealth by Level. Wealth a character should roughly have in gear/funds per level.

Herobizkit said:

What's a WBL?

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Wealth By Level. As in, the suggested/supposed amount of gold/equipment a character of a given level should have. EDIT: Looks like Fangor multi-classed with Ninja.

Trinham and I should have 13,000 (and soon, closer to 19,000), while I think we've got all of maybe 3,000 GP of stuff, counting our weapons. Jareth's Chain is +1 and Trinham's sword is magic (so probably +1), but that's really the extent of big stuff so far.

Bah, "should" have. Back in 1e, you got what was randomly rolled and that was it.

Herobizkit said:

Bah, "should" have. Back in 1e, you got what was randomly rolled and that was it.

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There are plenty of folks still subscribing to that idea. I'm not one of them.

Random treasure is annoying to me for a few reasons.
1- It's easily abused by a crappy, controlling GM as an excuse for not giving out decent items.
2- It has a habit of showing up with stuff no one can easily use. I understand coming up with clever uses for items, but when all you have is a grey Bag of Tricks, Dust of Appearance and a Ring of Feather Falling at 10th level, there's not a lot of really useful things you can do.
And 3- selling the stuff gets you less gold, according to the book, while keeping it makes the GM feel good about giving you junk. Either way, you might as well stab yourself in the foot.

Part of this is also 3/3.5 being built with the assumption of magic items being given/received during play and those items being actually useful. They're practically required for all classes (only Cleric, Druid and Wizard can really get away without them, Sorcerer to a lesser extent), if using a lot of book-monsters.
Example: Pit Fiend vs. 20th-level Fighter with no magic items. Fighter has, at best (Half-Orc for race), +20 BAB +2 Weapon Focus Feats +7 STR. Pit Fiend has 40 AC (44 if the Fiend is smart and uses Unholy Aura all the time). Fighter hits 1/2 the time with his first attack, 1/4 second, 1/20 on third and fourth strikes. And does all of 2d6+13 per hit. Meanwhile, he's getting ripped apart by the Pit Fiend's 6 attacks, all doing high damage and auto-hitting the Fighter. Now, yes, one of the casters could do something to help... But their save DCs will be a lot lower than they normally would be, making their most-potent spells far less effective (at best, DC 26-27 without magic items), which the Pit Fiend has a better than 50% chance of making. The Rogue has a fairly poor chance to hit with +15 BAB +7 Dex +1 Weapon Focus (possibly +2 flanking). Oh, and let's not forget DR and SR.
Now with items, the Fighter will hit harder, get hit less and generally do better. Same goes for the mages. The Rogue might actually be able to hit the Pit Fiend reasonably often. Magic items are needed to face the threats generally assumed to come up in-game.
And don't even get me started on Monks...

There's also the matter (IMO) of using random treasure as an excuse to not put thought into the items given out. Which would you like more - the +1 weapon that fits your character's style or the +2 weapon that has no discernible use for anyone in the party? I've been playing in another campaign for over 3 years now and nearly all the treasure we've taken and used ourselves (rather than selling it) has come from NPCs the DM optimized, not random treasure. And even then, we generally keep less than half that stuff, simply because it isn't useful for anyone in the group.

So, yeah, I'm not fond of random treasure. WBL is far more palatable to me, even I don't believe it's the best solution. I'm not sold on 4E's auto-boost system either... I think it would really be best if both classes and the monsters encountered were entirely non-dependent on magic items, rather items being icing on a cake. But such a thing has not occurred with PF yet (and for obvious reasons, never will for 3.5), and I don't hold my breath for it happening. So I make use of WBL.

Randomly rolled treasure produces some amusing and contradictory results at times. A +5 Holy Avenger at level 3? That happened once to a party I was in. Result? The Paladin became even more annoying and overbearing. I have also seen some truly bizarre and pointless items, like the Dagger +1, +3 vs Giants. Because 1d4+3 (plus bizarre 2nd edition Strength bonuses) damage is awesome against Giants and everyone will put away their 2-handed sword to use the super-dagger. Plus the aforementioned Bag of Tricks (there's an awesome comic from Order of the Stick about the wizards that create a Bag of Tricks somewhere around), Pearls of Arcane Power for spontaneous arcane casters etc.

While it is unreasonable to expect every magic item found by the party to be usable, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect SOME customisation to the party. Otherwise the Fighter has to decide if his Weapon Spec. Bastard Sword needs to be left behind to use the shiny new Flail of Frost +2 to fight the Fire Elemental Queen, because he has no other magic weapons and the Fire Elemental Queen is immune to non-magic physical damage...

Wealth-by-level I find to be an obscene concept. The idea that by Level 7 "I should have this and this and this" just feeds the fire of the "gimme gimme" mentality a lot of people have these days. Additionally, I have found that actually having the "correct" wealth-by-level makes combat encounters easier than they should be. And, lastly, it cheapens the magic item creation feats. If a player really, really, really wants a Wand of Haste (lets not go into why...) then they can take the creation feat and make one if the DM won't give it. Having an absurd amount of gold floating around (wealth-by-level makes me feel rich) means anyone can go down to Ye Olde Magicke Item Emporium and just tick off the "must have" items like a Wand of Cure Level Appropriate Wounds.

Regarding the ability to simply purchase what you want, that is not always the case. In the only table top game I was part of, years ago, the DM gave decent funds, but the town we were in did not have the economy to grant us spending the 20k gold on decent items. So, I think there is still a way to balance it, and of course, it all comes down to the DM. Luckily, we have a good one

The metagame assumption of 3.x is that the PCs will be allowed to sell trinket/useless items in exchange for the resources necessary to craft the ones they DO want; 4e glossed this over with their WoW-style "magic powder" disenchantment mechanic.

Wealth also doesn't have to be in gold or magic items (though, again, 3.x assumes that it is), though the DM will have to 'justify' his reasoning if the players point a gun at him and make him distribute WBL.

To be fair, I recently played in an adventure where the level 5 PC's were sorely under-geared for the monsters we were facing. I was allowed to make a new 4th level PC and buy my gear as per the WBL. I came on board with a CLW Wand and a +1 Longspear... which was more than most of the party had. The best weapon any of them had was a permanently Blessed/Good-aligned 2-handed sword (cool concept, though).

Way I figure it, as long as their melee characters get at least a +1 weapon, players can handle most monsters of around their level.

Everything else is gravy.

Most of what has been said I agree with, but the one thing I dislike more than anything is the XP cost to craft items. I understand the logic of why they did it, but when the melee/ ranged guys end up two or three levels ahead of the casters, fully decked out, I cry a little.

IIRC, pathfinder boosted the initial price for crafting items to remedy this correct?

Axel said:

While it is unreasonable to expect every magic item found by the party to be usable, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect SOME customisation to the party.

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If this is a response to my comment about customization, I didn't say I wanted every item to be usable. I pointed out that nearly none of them were usable. Those that were useful came almost-invariably from semi-optimized NPCs.

Wealth-by-level I find to be an obscene concept. The idea that by Level 7 "I should have this and this and this" just feeds the fire of the "gimme gimme" mentality a lot of people have these days. Additionally, I have found that actually having the "correct" wealth-by-level makes combat encounters easier than they should be.

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And yet, it is the default assumption of both 3.5 and PF. Having at least close to correct WBL gives you important bonuses and help keep you alive and well. IMO, the best way to stay alive and well is playing smart, but that's another topic. As for too easy, it's entirely dependent on how the encounters were set up. Was it a bunch of lower-CR enemies to make a proper EL fight? Or was it one or two bigger monsters? What level was the game? (As it gets higher, it gets tougher to gauge difficulty correctly, speaking from experience.)

And, lastly, it cheapens the magic item creation feats. If a player really, really, really wants a Wand of Haste (lets not go into why...) then they can take the creation feat and make one if the DM won't give it.

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And if you don't have the time to craft things? You just blew a feat... If you're lucky, the DM allows retraining. If not, you're stuck with a useless feat. Theoretically, you are supposed to get down-time, but like WBL, it's simply theoretical. Games vary in their use of such things.

Adding to Fangor's response: there can also easily be limitations on what is "in-stock" at magic shops. It's the DM's fault if the town has a Wizard 6, but sells +3 or +4 items.

Axel said:

Hey, one of my favourite characters is a half-orc Monk w/ 20 Strength!

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My comment about Monks didn't mean they can't be fun or effective. It was meant in the context of needing magic gear to stay potent (or even just competent) at higher levels.

Herobizkit said:

The metagame assumption of 3.x is that the PCs will be allowed to sell trinket/useless items in exchange for the resources necessary to craft the ones they DO want; 4e glossed this over with their WoW-style "magic powder" disenchantment mechanic.

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And in some games, that works. Other games so severely limit magic items that it becomes pointless either way.

Wealth also doesn't have to be in gold or magic items (though, again, 3.x assumes that it is), though the DM will have to 'justify' his reasoning if the players point a gun at him and make him distribute WBL.

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I'm guessing you mean the 'political/social wealth' like becoming a commander/lord/whatever? I know older editions had that in mind for higher levels, and some 3.x/PF games (particularly the Kingmaker AP, from what I've heard and read) do manage to pull it off. Again, for some games that would work, and others it would fall flat on its face.
I know in the game I mentioned before, my character (the one in my sig-sblock who has survived every damn thing thrown at him for the past 3 years) would absolutely hate having to actually manage things like that. He's an adventurer, not a ruler.

To be fair, I recently played in an adventure where the level 5 PC's were sorely under-geared for the monsters we were facing. I was allowed to make a new 4th level PC and buy my gear as per the WBL. I came on board with a CLW Wand and a +1 Longspear... which was more than most of the party had. The best weapon any of them had was a permanently Blessed/Good-aligned 2-handed sword (cool concept, though).

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Yeah, there's an example of lack of WBL being a problem. Admittedly, it can be a problem in the other direction if the DM doesn't pay attention to what the players are buying. I'm not saying WBL is the be-all end-all or a cure-all, merely that it is and that it is an assumption built into this edition of our beloved game.

Way I figure it, as long as their melee characters get at least a +1 weapon, players can handle most monsters of around their level.

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Up to a certain level, sure. That idea would work fine for an E6 game. Around 8th, though (IME), magic items start getting really important.
I absolutely know my high-level Monday party would be dead already if it wasn't for their magic items.

EDIT: Jackslate, yes, PF got rid of crafting's XP costs. I think they just increased the GP cost, or they might have just left it alone... Not sure, as I haven't really been involved in a lot of PF and haven't even thought about playing a crafter in a PF game.

I re-read my post and it comes across as unnecessarily harsh in tone. Apologies to anyone who thought I was having a dig at them...I wasn't. Wealth-by-level just gets my hackles up. So, sorry.

Dragonwriter, I think you've nailed the issue without explicitly stating "the solution". It is entirely the DM's prerogative to set treasure levels. Provided they are consistent across adventures and characters, and design encounters that align with the treasure given and character capabilities, there will be no problems. Sadly not all DMs (myself included in the bucket) are not as perfect as HM.

My bad experiences with magical treasure and "rich" or "poor" characters have always begun with one of the above principles being violated. As you pointed out (I think it was you...too lazy to read that far back), a melee character without permanent magic item support is weak. A full-caster without permanent magic item support is, well, not as powerful as they would be with them. But, a naked level 15 sorceror is a force to be reckoned with far more than a naked level 15 half-orc barbarian.