Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

Kzach · Jul 3, 2011

At least it is according to Paizo's CEO: Lisa Stevens. There are several posts of hers in the thread to get a clearer picture of what she's saying.

The general gist, though, is that according to her, Pathfinder is outselling D&D.

Is it time to put on the aluminium hats and run around screaming that the world is falling?

prosfilaes · Jul 3, 2011

To cite the ever controversial Amazon bestsellers list for gaming again Amazon.com Bestsellers: The most popular items in Fantasy Gaming :

Cutting out the non-RPG stuff, we get
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Ultimate-Magic/dp/1601252994/ref=zg_bs_16211_1"] [/ame]

1: Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Magic
2: Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Core Rulebook
3: Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale: A 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons Supplement
8: Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: The Pathfinder Bestiary
9: Dungeons & Dragons Fantasy Roleplaying Game: An Essential D&D Starter
11: Player's Handbook, Version 3.5 (Dungeon & Dragons Roleplaying Game: Core Rules)
12: Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook (4th Edition)

For physical book sales, Pathfinder does look to be on top.

Xphile · Jul 3, 2011

prosfilaes said:
For physical book sales, Pathfinder does look to be on top.

I'm sure they are ahead in digital book sales as well

Of course I do wonder how many D&D players just use DDI now. As a GM, I buy new monster manuals and settings (once and a while an adventure, if it peeks my interest). I know plenty of players though, who scoff at the idea of buying actual books when a yearly DDI subscription gets them everything.

Keefe the Thief · Jul 3, 2011

Pathfinder also washed my car twice this week. That game seems to be on the rise.

Kzach · Jul 3, 2011

Xphile said:
I know plenty of players though, who scoff at the idea of buying actual books when a yearly DDI subscription gets them everything.

I'm pretty firmly in that boat, although lately I've been questioning the logic of it because there's actually a surprising amount of information that is NOT available through DDI.

The other thing that continues to concern me about this whole digital push is that what happens if WotC dies tomorrow and stops offering DDI? At least when the CB was offline I could still make up to date characters, but with the CB as it is now and with no books, I'd basically have to give up 4e altogether. They're not exactly creating any sort of lasting legacy without physical magazines and their strategy of undermining their own physical products with digital offerings.

It makes me wonder how history will view 4e. Sure, there are books of the edition in existence but at what level of saturation? OD&D, 1e, 2e, 3e all still have massive amounts of books in circulation and therefore a solid place in history. Their legacy is secure. If I wanted to go and play 2e again, I could pull out all my old modules and buy a few second hand books to fill the gaps... will I be able to do that with 4e in ten years time?

WarlockLord · Jul 3, 2011

I like the way the 3.5 Player's Handbook is still outselling the 4e PHB. Especially considering that the majority of the info in the Player's Handbook 3.5 can be found online in the SRD.

AeroDm · Jul 3, 2011

Kzach said:
At least it is according to Paizo's CEO: Lisa Stevens. There are several posts of hers in the thread to get a clearer picture of what she's saying.

The general gist, though, is that according to her, Pathfinder is outselling D&D.

Is it time to put on the aluminium hats and run around screaming that the world is falling?

I believe the general wisdom is that each step of the publishing process is a doubling. So if a book sells for $40, WotC got $20, and paid $10 to print it (i.e. $10 profit). So a DDi subscription is about as profitable as selling a subscriber a book a month. I'm stoked (and believe) that Pathfinder is outselling D&D in books, but I think we're pretty far from tinfoil hat season. D&D has clearly committed to their new business model and it shouldn't be surprising that it is cannibalizing the old model.

WarlockLord · Jul 3, 2011

AeroDm said:
I believe the general wisdom is that each step of the publishing process is a doubling. So if a book sells for $40, WotC got $20, and paid $10 to print it (i.e. $10 profit). So a DDi subscription is about as profitable as selling a subscriber a book a month. I'm stoked (and believe) that Pathfinder is outselling D&D in books, but I think we're pretty far from tinfoil hat season. D&D has clearly committed to their new business model and it shouldn't be surprising that it is cannibalizing the old model.

Any figures on this? Because from my short time subscribing, I was not impressed. Then they changed the character builder and I heard a lot of people were extremely upset, as well as current outcries over the lack of crunch.

pawsplay · Jul 3, 2011

Sometimes I have bad dreams about WotC buying up Paizo, lock, stock, and barrel, then rereleasing Pathfinder as 5e with new art and tieflings and dragonborn as core races.

AeroDm · Jul 3, 2011

WarlockLord said:
Any figures on this? Because from my short time subscribing, I was not impressed. Then they changed the character builder and I heard a lot of people were extremely upset, as well as current outcries over the lack of crunch.

Not sure I totally follow. The "general wisdom" comes from an article Sean Reynolds posted a long time ago, the "$10 about equals DDi profitability" is from the DDi pricing, the "Pathfinder outselling D&D" comes from the OP's link. I'm assuming then that you're asking if I have an educated guess about DDi subscriptions and I do not. The numbers I've seen thrown around as conservative, though, are still pretty high (40k comes to mind). From other casual remarks by industry folks (including the enthusiasm of Paizo at hitting 50k sales of core Pathfinder book) I've come to presume that selling 40k books/month would be fantastically successful for the industry. There is a good chance DDi equates to about that or beyond. Wish I had more, sorry.