Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

Status
Not open for further replies.

TheAuldGrump

First Post
Obviously I touched on some sore spots there. People are very loudly telling me they are not afraid and putting on a bold face. I've seen it before.

I'm an educator, and as you may have heard we've been going through a lot of change in the last 10 years. In three years we have to have every child proficient in reading and math. This has led to many attempts to change and reform. Schools that embrace changes successfully often do quite well. However, many of my fellow teachers balk at the idea of doing something differently than before, even if it is for the best for everyone, especially the students. I hear many familiar statements, let's see if you can recognize them:

  • There was nothing wrong with what we were doing
  • This doesn't work (when it does, they just don't understand)
  • The old way worked (when it didn't)
  • We just need to do what we were doing better
  • We've never done it that way before
  • The issues the new way addresses don't really matter
  • We don't need to worry about meeting the needs other stakeholders, only ourselves (in so many words)

(For those of you that added "in the bedroom" after each item list, shame on you)

Just as I've seen many good programs fail because teachers refused to "buy-in", I fear we will see the same for 4e. For the first time in it's nearly 40 year history, D&D is back on the cutting edge of RPG design just to be held back by traditionalists for refuse to accept change. For those educators in the know, it's like choosing basal readers over balanced literacy because that's what people know. Even if 4e fails, we will see more games like it in the future.

To be fair:

I'm sure many people tried it and didn't like it. On multiple occasions early on I encountered players who were verbally abusive to the game before they had ever come to the table. Extremely unpleasant episodes which clearly showed some had already made their choice. If this was not you and your choice was perfectly rational without pre-judgement I understand and apologize if I have offended you.

I have looked at Pathfinder extensively while not purchasing it and agree with many of the "uber-tweaks" to 3.5 they have made. If I was still playing 3.5 I would be enthusiastic about Pathfinder but I would still be fixing some things (there is no difference between the first level bards, for example, they both still suck.) However, 4e is the way RPGs will survive into the future. Our type of gaming is waning in the face of computer gaming and simple reality. Nearly all my old gaming comrades (I live far away now) substitute WoW or the like for gaming these days. 4e is appealing, understandable, and versatile. There's nothing in earlier editions I can't do in 4e, we roleplay now more than ever. Pathfinder represents the pinnacle of evolution for the old game system, but it doesn't overcome the flaws and problems like 4e does.

Pathfinder adventures are absolutely gorgeous and I am told they are well crafted. If they made 4e versions I would probably buy them. I will look into converted modules, I did not know they exist.

I do feel 4e has a major, major flaw and that is the GSL. Under the OGL we saw a bloom of 3rd party support, although a time limit would have been smart. Anytime I conceive of a 3rd party project under 4e I run into the restrictions of the GSL. If they would open their rule system up more I think they would have better success. As it currently stands, what have they to lose?
Guess what - I am an educator too, as are two of my Pathfinder players. I have taught military history, military science, and religion. (Not all at the same time.) One of my players teaches English in middle school, her husband teaches fencing.

So... you being one as well is irrelevant. There is a reason why Appeal to Authority is considered a logical fallacy. Being an expert in one thing is no guarantee of expertise in anything else.

The Auld Grump
 

log in or register to remove this ad

MrGrenadine

Explorer
The model introduced first with 4e (highly expandable rules system, heavy digital support, treating a system like software that can be updated, etc.) will be the model we see going forward. This is how things will be done from now on. There is no going back. Those who do not adopt this model will not be considered forerunners in the RPG pack.

Actually, I hope the digital model introduced with 4e (highly errated rules system, intermittently successful digital support, treating a system like its expendable, etc.) will not be the model we see going forward.

Rather, I hope the system matures and becomes stable, and the digital tools become dependable resources to enhance the TT experience, rather than just a way to see what was nerfed this week.

There is no going back! Unless WotC wants to regain market share and create a more highly regarded product and stuff.

And those who have not adopted this current model will one day be able to enjoy the improved version that is hopefully around the corner, (but that is actually probably 5 years away or more, judging from past events).
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I'm an educator, and as you may have heard we've been going through a lot of change in the last 10 years. In three years we have to have every child proficient in reading and math. This has led to many attempts to change and reform. Schools that embrace changes successfully often do quite well.

Many schools that embrace changes also do no better and some, in fact, do worse. You need the right changes in the right places to generate better results (assuming that there is the possibility of objectively better results).
 

Dannager

First Post
1. Highly expandable rules system that has, upon being expanded in a major way, through PHB 3 and Essentials caused a fracture in their customer base... Meanwhile the rule expansions in the APG and UM books for Pathfinder have caused no such fracturing.

Don't even try this. It's laughable. I'll entertain serious arguments, but not this sort of nonsense.

2. Heavy digital support... Well you did say heavy and not good. In all honesty with my HeroLab CB (Which I actually own), CombatManager, the searchable PFSRD and/or PDF's with copy and paste... Not seeing WotC as having such a big lead in this department.

I do.

If you don't, that's fine. D&D is fine without your support.

I mean when was the last time the Monster Builder sorry... Adveture Tools had any actual new tools added to it? And many of the actual fans of 4e have been overall dissapointed with Dragon and Dungeon under WotC.

Some fans will be disappointed with anything. That's fine. It's not a big deal.

And no, we haven't seen new tools in a while.

Unless you count the VTT.

I sure do.

3. Treating a system like software that can be updated... Yeah, again this is not universally accepted as a positive by many of the fans of 4e, especially since with it's exception based design there are just too many areas (mostly powers) where changes can be made to be kept up with. At a certain point people want some stability, even if it's not perfect.

And again, that's fine. Some fans won't want it. Not a big deal.

You see ideas in and of themselves aren't what leads the way into the future, it's implementation that does... Hey but then again, just like with 3.5, Paizo might step in and actually make the DDI model work, then I agree it probably would be the way of the future. ;)

I love this part.

When WotC does something, puppies were kicked.

When Paizo does the same thing, way of the future.
 

Dannager

First Post
Actually, I hope the digital model introduced with 4e (highly errated rules system, intermittently successful digital support, treating a system like its expendable, etc.) will not be the model we see going forward.

Rather, I hope the system matures and becomes stable, and the digital tools become dependable resources to enhance the TT experience, rather than just a way to see what was nerfed this week.

The digital tools are both.

There is no going back! Unless WotC wants to regain market share and create a more highly regarded product and stuff.

Going forward can get them that much more easily.

And those who have not adopted this current model will one day be able to enjoy the improved version that is hopefully around the corner, (but that is actually probably 5 years away or more, judging from past events).

And those who have adopted the current model get to enjoy it now, and when the next version comes out! :D
 


Imaro

Legend
Don't even try this. It's laughable. I'll entertain serious arguments, but not this sort of nonsense.

Yeah, because there aren't people on the 4e boards at WotC's own site claiming Essentials killed 4e and they'll never buy it... But avoidance is a fair and valid tactic when you don't have a point to make.


I do.

If you don't, that's fine. D&D is fine without your support.

Well they could probably use my support in the purchasing of their print products... ;)


Some fans will be disappointed with anything. That's fine. It's not a big deal.

And some fans will accept and defend anything...

And no, we haven't seen new tools in a while.

Unless you count the VTT.

I sure do.

Is that out of Beta yet (I honestly don't know)? Do all subscribers have access to that tool? If not I bet they don't count it.


And again, that's fine. Some fans won't want it. Not a big deal.


Well if you keep dismissing parts of your fanbase... eventually you end up loosing too many.


I love this part.

When WotC does something, puppies were kicked.

When Paizo does the same thing, way of the future.

Strange interpretation... I was just saying I think they are a better run company with better vision and direction than WotC and if put in charge of DDI (Just like when they ran Dragon and Dungeon) it would probably provide much better digital support. Not sure where puppies entered into the conversation.
 

Dannager

First Post
No, no - he's right. I mean, look at the DCC RPG coming out later this year. It has all the things he mentions...

Oh, wait. No, it doesn't.

How strange. :lol:

I'm so, so glad you actually read and digested my post, DaveMage, rather than glossing over it to score a pithy rhetorical point.

When I say there's no going back, I'm referring to the hobby as a whole. It will progress in that direction. Small-potatoes games will still come out all the time and they will fire off their creative guns in whichever direction they please. But they will not become the hobby/industry leaders unless they make a concerted and effective effort to make this model work for their game.
 

Dannager

First Post
Yeah, because there aren't people on the 4e boards at WotC's own site claiming Essentials killed 4e and they'll never buy it... But avoidance is a fair and valid tactic when you don't have a point to make.

Imaro, there are people on the Paizo forums claiming that Ultimate Magic is the final straw for them.

Don't play this game with me. I'm not interested in entertaining an argument that boils down to "Everything in Paizoland is shiny and bright and everything in WotCland is awful!" when the reality is that things in both lands are pretty much fine.

It's even worse that you followed up with the predictable "Your unwillingness to entertain my terrible loaded argument is evidence of intellectual cowardice!" trash.

Well they could probably use my support in the purchasing of their print products... ;)
They could, but they don't need you.

And some fans will accept and defend anything...
That's right, some will.

Is that out of Beta yet (I honestly don't know)? Do all subscribers have access to that tool? If not I bet they don't count it.
I believe that all DDI subscribers who said they wanted in on the beta are now in on the beta.

Well if you keep dismissing parts of your fanbase... eventually you end up loosing too many.
And if you cater to the vocal minority "fans" (if they can be called that), you lose too many as well.

Strange interpretation... I was just saying I think they are a better run company with better vision and direction than WotC and if put in charge of DDI (Just like when they ran Dragon and Dungeon) it would probably provide much better digital support. Not sure where puppies entered into the conversation.
You seem to think that DDI is not good digital support. That's sort of a silly position to hold, given that it's better official digital support than has ever been provided by anyone in the industry, ever.
 

Imaro

Legend
You seem to think that DDI is not good digital support. That's sort of a silly position to hold, given that it's better official digital support than has ever been provided by anyone in the industry, ever.

Last thing I'm going to say... nice way to switch it up, now were talking about "official" digital support specifically provided by someone or a company in the industry... and I'm the one playing games. Whatever :hmm:

In other words, I think some of the fan made stuff out there for both Pathfinder (CombatManager) and 4e (MasterPlan) far surpasses what WotC's DDI has accomplished so far. Oh yeah, but for some reason these don't count now.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top