Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

Imaro said:

Last thing I'm going to say... nice way to switch it up, now were talking about "official" digital support specifically provided by someone or a company in the industry... and I'm the one playing games. Whatever

In other words, I think some of the fan made stuff out there for both Pathfinder (CombatManager) and 4e (MasterPlan) far surpasses what WotC's DDI has accomplished so far. Oh yeah, but for some reason these don't count now.

Click to expand...

When I outlined the model originally, and explained the things a game company would have to do in order to ensure that it followed the model, at what point in there did you believe I was suddenly talking about third-party anything?

I was never not talking about official support, because this is a model for a game's creator to follow. The only thing they have control over is official content.

Man, Imaro.

wow guys, nice way to drag another thread into the gutter with edition war sniping when we all know the BEST roleplaying games were Cowboys & Indians and it's modern campaign setting expansion, Cops & Robbers.

I heard another company was going retro-futuristic with Cowboys & Aliens later this year. It's supposed to have an old-school retro feel with modern gaming concepts.

*sigh*
this thread can die now.

Nevermind... Jimmifett you're right this is suppose to be a thread about appreciating the strides Paizo as a company have made and I am wrong for dragging it off topic. I apologize to everyone. And I'll just say congrats to Paizo!!

Imaro said:

Well in all honesty, because you held WotC's DDI up as your shinning example, and as I said before there are free programs out there that do more to support the running of a game than what the DDI offers... at least for Pathfinder. Why would I pay for sub-par digital support when there is better out there that is free? Especially if I choose a game that is based on the OGL?

Click to expand...

Yes, Imaro. Pathfinder is awesome. Go Pathfinder.

Now can we stop talking about how one game has arguably better digital support than the other? It doesn't really serve a point.

Personally, any system that focuses on a digital initiative will not get my financial support. This includes Pathfinder, should they go that way. Digital is becoming increasingly associated with subscription-based, throw-away, DRM, no permanence in my mind and that is the opposite of what I want in a RPG. I want my books, my binders, my dice, my maps. If that makes me backwards then so be it.

(I do understand those that game remotely because they can't in person. But I don't ever otherwise want to game in an environment where everyone has a laptop or smartphone. Blech!)

BigWeather said:

Personally, any system that focuses on a digital initiative will not get my financial support. This includes Pathfinder, should they go that way. Digital is becoming increasingly associated with subscription-based, throw-away, DRM, no permanence in my mind and that is the opposite of what I want in a RPG. I want my books, my binders, my dice, my maps. If that makes me backwards then so be it.

(I do understand those that game remotely because they can't in person. But I don't ever otherwise want to game in an environment where everyone has a laptop or smartphone. Blech!)

Click to expand...

It just means that you probably will not find the next generation of the most popular RPGs very appealing. You're set in your ways, and that's fine.

BigWeather said:

Personally, any system that focuses on a digital initiative will not get my financial support. This includes Pathfinder, should they go that way. Digital is becoming increasingly associated with subscription-based, throw-away, DRM, no permanence in my mind and that is the opposite of what I want in a RPG. I want my books, my binders, my dice, my maps. If that makes me backwards then so be it.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I agree. I think digital should enhance the offering (a tool in the toolbox), but not be required for play.

Dannager said:

It just means that you probably will not find the next generation of the most popular RPGs very appealing. You're set in your ways, and that's fine.

Click to expand...

You make a good point... and then you follow it with a snarky comment. I'm not sure why you do that.

In any case, the point is valid. Traditional table top RPGs are quaint. They have been quaint for some time, probably since the first MUDs and MUSHs appeared. That, however, doesn't mean they are bad or on their way out. Coloring books are quaint and my kids love them. Silver Age super heroes are quaint and they are making billions of dollars.

I totally agree that there's a new kind of interactive entertainment on the horizon, grown out of traditional TTRPGs and spearheaded by 4E and the DDI. That probable fact, though, does not herald the end of TTRPGs or Pathfinder. In fact, as WotC (most likely, given their position and resources, but who knows it could be someone else; I mean, who thought a little known company would revolutionize gaming with a new form in the early 1990s *cough*WhiteWolfLARP*cough*) will probably look to wholly integrate the DDI experience, not just with D&D the RPG but with the rest of the brand, as well. Why wouldn't they let you play Wrath of Ashardalon on it for a nominal fee once the game has run its primary sales course?

The point is, Paizo "beating" WotC at the TTRPG game *may* lead to new innovation for TT D&D and a win-win war of awesomesauce for gamers, *or* it could result in WotC investing in a new kind of game that will appeal to a different audience (or, more realistically, the different tastes of the same audience; I'm as likely to play Portal as I am Guillotine, for example -- I just love games).

What doesn't help anyone is this constant sniping, this constant badwrongfunism and this constant moving of goal posts.

C_M2008 said:

Pathfinder is still the relatively new kid on the block, you've got high sales as everyone checks out the game they've heard so much about, which after a few years will drop to a lower level. Further I would assume for both markets there is a point where they reach supplement saturation -

Click to expand...

But when though? Paizo is finishing up its 8th adventure path. They have produced a metric ton of adventures....neither of which seems even remotely reaching saturation point. Their producing a slower rate of books for the actual game which helps alot to stave off saturation.

Kamikaze Midget said:

And on that note....

DDI is a great plan, but it costs more. Coding, programming, and updating that beast takes quite a bit more money than simply paying some starving writer/fans to do something they might do some of anyway. The expertise needed to get it up and running, and appealing, is pretty pricey.

It IS an upfront cost that can be recouped, but it's a big upfront cost. And if you need to re-do the program every 10 years or so because you launch a new edition, or a new rules element, or something...it's tougher to make ends meet.

This isn't saying that WotC isn't raking in dough from the DDI, this is just saying that the DDI is more expensive than a traditionally published book, so the income may look a bit staggered (and almost for sure looks in the red for the first few months).

It's expensive to run good web programs, and while subscriptions are a wonderful thing, $10/month/person might be enough to pay writers to make books, but not enough to pay programmers to make programs.

Click to expand...

Lets not forget WotC has also promised the game table, character and monster builder, for the playing ability online at a virtual table, which also adds cost as well.