You've missed the point, twice. It's not about credentials, it's an example. I'm writing about what I know. At no point did I say, "I'm a teacher, therefore listen to me," and I challenge you to find where I did.
Then why did you mention it? It otherwise had no bearing. As an example it did not illuminate the content.
It was to set the reader up for the example I was using, as I've already stated at length, twice. If I wanted to actually try to get on a high horse about design, I would have listed my numerous design credits, all for 3.x. Which I do in a post below to refute some other guy who has made assumptions about me. If I wanted to appeal to authority, I probably would have raised that point, don't you think?
If your intent was to set up your example then you failed. Mentioning your design credits would have been more to the point, unless your own experience could have been used against your argument. It was germane, and should have been used rather than the irrelevant status of educator. I also have design credits, largely outdated since I was working for a small press RPG company in the 1980s (The Companions, operating out of Bath, Maine, now out of business for twenty odd years). More recently was a limited amount of material for 3.X. It is entirely possible that your credentials in that regard would have added more weight than mine own.
So, if I write a detailed response in paragraph form, I'm committing a fallacy? That's not what we are teaching in the classroom, btw. Detailed responses are what we are hoping for. You were so incredibly off base with your attack of me personally in a post that contained no reference to the actual topic of the thread I felt the need to explain at length. I'm always verbose, I even write articles for the
University of Pheonix. Oops, I guess I just fallacied again (like that's even a verb.) That's not an appeal to authority folks, just that I find it easy to vomit out words in quantity. With that clarifying statement said, in no way does verbosity give my opinion any more weight than yours.
Again, then why did you bother? Both of us would benefit from the adage 'brevity is the soul of wit'. I believe that you were using a cloud of verbiage to obfuscate rather than reveal. I in turn use words more as weapon, to hold forth so that things may be seen rather than hidden.
Again, agreed. If you read my posts in total you may begin to understand this as well.
I have read them, I merely disagree with them. To quote Homer Simpson 'Just because I don't care doesn't mean that I don't understand'. Or, in this case, my understanding in no way indicates my agreement.
You see, that "English is a separate subject" idea has got to go. I had a middle school teacher argue that she had sole province over teaching English and that she was the only qualified person to teach it when I suggested a summer school plan that included English curriculum for all classes. She teaches English for all students in her grade level, and her scores are not terrific. That's the problem in education right there, as long as an admin allows that idea to continue, we are unlikely to raise those scores much. When kids are reading instructions for the games they play in gym, writing reports on composers in music class, and writing essays in history using the exact same rubric they do in English we will be getting somewhere.
Again, this in no way informs your own opinion. Nor, in fact, do I agree that English should
not be taught as a separate subject. Understanding the use of language by means other than context increases both the accuracy and flexibility of the language. If anything I believe that increased focus on language and upon critical thinking would do America some good. An informed populace is less subject to manipulation.
That's a problem today too. 4e is a change in how RPGs run, one that makes the game more open to new players which we absolutely need to continue our hobby. Just like teachers do (I guess I fallacied again) so many have closed ranks and desperately tried to stick to what they know. On that note, I'd like a comparison of red box sales to the PF beginner's box.
As the Pathfinder Beginner's Box is not yet out the only information that I have is for the Red Box, and is both local, and for you anecdotal. Locally, the Red Box flopped big time. This was not what I expected, and if you look around these boards you will find posts where I confidently predicted that the Red Box would do well. I was wrong.
But I assumed a decent product, and much of what I have heard on the subject indicates that it was instead a rather poor one.
This does not make me happy, because one thing that we
do agree on is that the hobby needs to grow. Right now 'innovative' 4e is stagnating while the older style of Pathfinder is growing. If this is the case then how can 4e be deemed superior? If the older system is proving more resilient then it is the newer system that is inferior.
Agreed. Although even if 4e goes teats up, I believe it has already blazed the trail of RPGs in the future, but that's another post.
There are a few lessons to be learned from engineering, first is an adage: Don't reinvent the wheel. The other is that 90% of innovation fails - either as unnecessary or inferior to what already exists. And for my own purposes 4e falls into that 90%. It does not appeal to me, and that lack of appeal is in no way from a lack of understanding. I understand it, and I do not like it.
Contrary to some opinion, most change, both in biology and in human invention, fail. Much of the rest has no real effect. The kink in a cat's tail or a new means of applying paint make little difference to the survival of either the cat or the car.
Trumpeting that change is the future is all well and good, but there is no guarantee that any particular change is going to be that future. There may well be a new gaming system that revolutionizes the hobby, but I very much doubt that 4e is in fact that system. It may prove to be the bubble memory of RPGs.
Agreed. WotC has actually made very few products that appeal to me lately. I fully expected to be purchasing my next PHB, DMG, and MM by this point. Instead, there are lots of essentials products of which I've only picked up the Rules Compendium. I hope to get a second hand copy of the Monster Vault, because I don't really want the pogs (you want to hear me bash 4e, get me started on the pogs!). I don't want or need a red box. WotC, give me something to buy, I don't even buy tiles anymore because I make more own terrain now (shout out to Vince of
showcaseterrain.com, that dungeon set rocks hardcore). I stopped buying the minis when the price went up, it's cheaper and more fun to buy metal and paint them. Lots of books have been aimed at players, which I appreciate. However, DMs spend considerably more than players do (5x or something, according to research I heard at a WotC seminar back in 2000) I am thankful for the redistribution of wealth, but maybe some more DM products are called for. I did pick up both board games, (so I could paint the minis mostly) and I don't know if those count as D&D sales. It's entirely possible that I, an "evangelical" 4e player, has had little opportunity to buy 4e products lately.
I agree in regard to metal minis. I disliked the randomness of the packaging of the plastics, and also perceived a loss of detail inherent in the material, most noticeable on humanoid sized miniatures.
That lack of appeal for DMs is a problem with WotC, and the part that I hope they will eventually overcome. It is interesting that Paizo, using an older model, is attaining success with products that WotC ignored - adventures and setting material, those very DM products of which you write. I have also heard between 4X and 5X bandied about in regards to GMs purchasing habits. I know that it is true in my case.
Change is not always for the better, regardless of game system I believe that WotC's current business model is flawed, perhaps fatally. Rather than cornering their market they glutted it.
I will also note that there have been 4e advocates denying the existence of evangelical 4e players. At the least you are honest in that regard.
I have no problem with folks spreading the good word about their system of
belief gaming, but I do have a problem when there is an assumption that others preferences are guided by ignorance. It is annoying, and has no place in rational debate.
I love the Smother's Brothers too. Again, we agree.
Well, unless I miss my mark you're halfway through composing your rebuttal in your head, which will be a fine opportunity for you to explore the Last Word Fallacy. Go ahead, I'm done explaining the same thing three times over.
There are no last words, merely a pause in the conversation.
As for everyone else, let the attacks continue.
Attacks? You proclaim yourself victim while belittling others' opinions, a passive aggressive defense that is in and of itself an attack, so stop hiding behind your claims of being victim. It is the manner in which you forward your points that diminishes their impact.
I am fairly certain that you knew that you were employing logical fallacies, and that you deliberately chose to defend your first fallacy with a second. That it was neither accident nor mere coincident, but rather deliberate instigation.
You claim to be an educator, I do not doubt this, and as such I find it difficult to believe that you are either ignorant of logical fallacies or that you do not understand the proper use of rhetoric. That you employed those fallacies regardless of that knowledge does not cast you in a good light.
Leave out the defensiveness, stand straight, and do not hide behind your words, your claimed authority, or your apparently flaunted victimhood. You wish to speak the gospel of 4e? Then go ahead, I will not gainsay your right to do so - but do not assume that the reason I have no love of 4e is due to some form of ignorance. Mine is an informed dislike.
You do not like Pathfinder? Then I will assume that you have a reason for doing so, though I may disagree with that reason. I have no reason to suspect that you have less than an informed dislike.
If you are going to fight then fight fair. It takes less time and encourages civilized discourse.
The Auld Grump, yes, my education was by Jesuits, and it shows... as does my current lack of sleep. Fatigue always makes me verbose, and perhaps more aggressive than needed....
