Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

ShinHakkaider · Jul 12, 2011

Dannager said:
Replace "online tools" with "miniatures", "battle mats", "cards", "laptops", or any other innovation or change to the hobby in the last decade, and you have the cry of a now-humbled doomsayer.

I dont think that miniatures and battlemats are innovations or changes. I think that they've been around at least close to the beginning of the hobby. Card's aren't necessarily new either. We'rent there spell cards during 2nd edition. There were also the use of cards in games like TORG and character cards in DC HERO 2nd(?) edition.

In my games, Laptops (and more recently my iPad2)are more of a utility than a necessity. If something happened to my iPad or MacBook Pro I'd still have my hardcopies with which to still run a game. I'm all for using tech to add to and advance what's already there, but when the absence of that tech in the case of strictly on line support of a game being yanked, leaving me high and dry? I fully understand and respect the trepidation.

Dannager said:
The sad part is that you got three other people to agree with you.

Was that bit of sniping even necessary?

ShinHakkaider · Jul 12, 2011

BryonD said:
But the really important thing is making the games that a lot of people want to play. The right tools will follow.

Exactly.

I had a conversation with a guy while setting up for my Pathfinder game a couple of months ago. He came over to ask what I was setting up and I told him. He asked me if I played 4E and I told him that I tried it but it definitely not for me. He proceeded on and on about the DDI and how great it was that he could create his character in about 10 min and that's one of the reasons that he liked 4E.

I explained to him that there were tools that supported electronic character creation for Pathfinder as well as other games and that I wasn't reliant on a monthly fee and there wasn't a fear of the whole thing being yanked when and if the company decided to put out a new edition.

He then admitted that he wasn't using the latest fully online version of the DDI, that he was still using the old downloadable one, there were just people who were supplying the data files for it. I agreed that that might be the way to go moving forward and told him about HeroLab and he said that he'd look into it but for the most part he was fine with the old DDI tools.

I care about the tools in relation to the game. I dont want the tools to BE the game. Wait, correction...I could deal if the tools were not fully controlled by the company on a server somewhere.

Dannager · Jul 12, 2011

ShinHakkaider said:
I dont think that miniatures and battlemats are innovations or changes. I think that they've been around at least close to the beginning of the hobby.

We weren't talking about introducing miniatures or battlemats to the hobby. We were talking about designing a tabletop roleplaying game in such a way that those things are required to play.

Card's aren't necessarily new either. We'rent there spell cards during 2nd edition.

Again, requirement is the topic, not the introduction of these things. But you did hit on my point anyway: cards have been introduced many times over the game's history, and at each of these points people have decried this as the start of the death of the hobby.

Was that bit of sniping even necessary?

It helps illustrate the point: a lot of people seem to have made the leap from "Computers are required to play this game," to "Computers are running this game for you." That's not a defensible leap, any more than needing a calculator to help with some tough math means that the calculator is suddenly running the game.

Thirty seconds of critical thought is more than enough to come across that problem, and yet four people (counting the poster in question) didn't see it.

Dannager · Jul 12, 2011

ShinHakkaider said:
I care about the tools in relation to the game. I dont want the tools to BE the game. Wait, correction...I could deal if the tools were not fully controlled by the company on a server somewhere.

I think this hits on the core of the issue for a lot of people: they want their D&D to be around forever, and they want to be in total control of it. Depending on another's support (WotC) to keep your game going is anathema to this group of people.

It's not about the technology. It's not about new or better ways of doing things. It's about the need to feel in control.

ShinHakkaider · Jul 12, 2011

Dannager said:
I think this hits on the core of the issue for a lot of people: they want their D&D to be around forever, and they want to be in total control of it. Depending on another's support (WotC) to keep your game going is anathema to this group of people.

It's not about the technology. It's not about new or better ways of doing things. It's about the need to feel in control.

I'm not clear on where you come down on this. Are you saying that that's not a valid point of concern for people? or are you agreeing that it is and you under stand that anxiety (not sure if that's the right word).

BigWeather · Jul 12, 2011

Dannager said:
It helps illustrate the point: a lot of people seem to have made the leap from "Computers are required to play this game," to "Computers are running this game for you." That's not a defensible leap, any more than needing a calculator to help with some tough math means that the calculator is suddenly running the game.

For me, at least, I stop at "computers are required to play this game." I could care less whether or not it is purely support or if it did indeed someday run the game, I don't want to ever have them required.

Liquidsabre · Jul 12, 2011

Dannager said:
Don't doubt for a second that Paizo wants its own character builder application. If they had the resources to invest in such a project, they probably would. Any RPG company would. The reality of their business model (historically) is that they need to focus all of their efforts on their print lines.

I agree. If Paizo had the ability they would indeed, but I wouldn't underestimate Paizo's ability to grow in new directions. Paizo re-invented its own business model from a magazine publisher into a full-fledged RPG company carrying its own RPG, setting, and fiction lines. All of that was accomplished in only the last 2 years.

I'd wager that Paizo is a nimble and capable enough RPG company to capitalize on their success to grow their business model in new directions, such as the creation of digital product. In no small part made possible with the hiring of additional talent to Paizo's ranks.

The recent release of apple digital content for iphones and ipads (iCrit and iFumble) is certainly proof that Paizo not only has a growing ability to create their own digital product but that they understand the success that digital products can add.

The difference is that any digital content Paizo produces will stand on a strong foundation of multiple successful print and electronic (pdf) product lines along with an active customer, fan, and 3PP community.

Dannager · Jul 12, 2011

ShinHakkaider said:
I'm not clear on where you come down on this. Are you saying that that's not a valid point of concern for people? or are you agreeing that it is and you under stand that anxiety (not sure if that's the right word).

The latter.

I feel that this is actually a societal anxiety that is in no way limited to the tabletop roleplaying sphere. The world is becoming increasingly interdependent, and I think that a lot of people are still uncomfortable with the idea that, before long, there won't be many aspects of their lives that they themselves have complete control over.

It's a trade-off, but it seems to me that our society has responded to the question this era poses ("Are you willing to trade a certain level of control over your life for increases in convenience, efficiency, and general well-being?") with an ever-louder "Yes."

Dannager · Jul 12, 2011

Liquidsabre said:
I agree. If Paizo had the ability they would indeed, but I wouldn't underestimate Paizo's ability to grow in new directions. Paizo re-invented its own business model from a magazine publisher into a full-fledged RPG company carrying its own RPG, setting, and fiction lines. All of that was accomplished in only the last 2 years.

I'd wager that Paizo is a nimble and capable enough RPG company to capitalize on their success to grow their business model in new directions, such as the creation of digital product. In no small part made possible with the hiring of additional talent to Paizo's ranks.

The recent release of apple digital content for iphones and ipads (iCrit and iFumble) is certainly proof that Paizo not only has a growing ability to create their own digital product but that they understand the success that digital products can add.

I agree, and I feel confident that we'll eventually see Paizo head down this path. Like any intelligent, smaller company, their best strategy is letting WotC lead the charge, and then copying its successes while developing workarounds to avoid its mistakes.

The difference is that any digital content Paizo produces will stand on a strong foundation of multiple successful print and electronic (pdf) product lines along with an active customer, fan, and 3PP community.

WotC has the fans and consumers. I would argue that the 3PP community (at least, a 3PP community as large as Paizo's) is not necessary. WotC does need to figure out a way to deliver the rest of their content digitally, though. It may not end up being PDFs, but the fact remains that it's still impossible to get all of WotC's 4e content digitally - even DDI subscribers don't have access to most of the fluff contained in their print releases.

Dannager · Jul 12, 2011

BigWeather said:
For me, at least, I stop at "computers are required to play this game." I could care less whether or not it is purely support or if it did indeed someday run the game, I don't want to ever have them required.

Do you feel that your reasons for not wanting computers to be required line up with the reasons I outlined a few posts earlier (i.e. wanting to feel in full control of your own game)?