Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

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BigWeather

Explorer
Do you feel that your reasons for not wanting computers to be required line up with the reasons I outlined a few posts earlier (i.e. wanting to feel in full control of your own game)?

No. I'm perfectly capable of writing my own tools if I wanted (and thus would have complete control, even with computers being involved). It is just that my idea of a fun night role-playing explicitly excludes computers, smart phones, etc. I have to deal with that stuff all day (and, as I program as a hobby as well, many nights). There is nothing that those devices bring to the table for me to make it worth it. For pre-game preparation, sure. The actual game, though, nope.
 

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IronWolf

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Yes. Paizo has almost zero control over these applications and services - they could be shut down or made unavailable tomorrow and Paizo wouldn't be able to do anything about it to ensure that its customers still had access to these digital integration tools.

True. I guess my standpoint is as a consumer I am put in a slightly worse position if WotC decides to stop DDI support or not handle a 4e to 5e change gracefully. So I see myself at slightly less risk as a consumer with the more distributed model. Plus some of the players that help provide tools have been around long enough that I am pretty comfortable with them being around awhile longer. Of course the same can be said of WotC - just the all my eggs in one basket thing - which not everyone will feel is an issue as convenience might trump that.


Dannager said:
Don't doubt for a second that Paizo wants its own character builder application. If they had the resources to invest in such a project, they probably would. Any RPG company would. The reality of their business model (historically) is that they need to focus all of their efforts on their print lines.

I think Paizo played this pretty smart. Being a smaller shop they instead gave Hero Lab the right to be the "official" Pathfinder role playing game character builder.

Though I do agree - if they were a larger company with more resources they might have tackled the project in-house instead.
 

BryonD

Hero
Like any intelligent, smaller company, their best strategy is letting WotC lead the charge, and then copying its successes while developing workarounds to avoid its mistakes.
Heh, that sounds a lot like an update of the somber predictions of Paizo's dire fate they faced for having taken a different path than WotC three years ago.

I think on the big picture you can easily say that Paizo copied WotC's huge success and avoided WotC's big mistake. But on the finer details and day to day stuff Paizo is very clearly forging their own path.

Whether or not you consider Paizo to be following right now, it is hard to call WotC's recent activity a "charge" to be followed.

Whether or not you consider WotC's recent activities to be a "charge" it is hard to see how Paizo is following their path.
 

DaveMage

Slumbering in Tsar
I think Paizo played this pretty smart. Being a smaller shop they instead gave Hero Lab the right to be the "official" Pathfinder role playing game character builder.

I thought they made Hero Lab "an" officially licensed character builder - not "the" officially licensed character builder (though I may be mis-remembering).

Though I do agree - if they were a larger company with more resources they might have tackled the project in-house instead.

That would not be consistent with how they operate, though. They focus on their core competencies of making the Pathfinder printed RPG (and printed accessories) and running an online store. Online tools are NOT amongst their core competencies. Just like they've licensed minis and are not interested in doing them in house.

Now, granted, they could choose to make online gaming tools a core competency, but that would mean a major shift in focus, and I don't think that the Pathfinder brand is enough to support an online division on its own. (At least, not one that could get quality products to market with any speed. Better to contract with a company that serves multiple clients and has the infrastructure in place to provide such support.)
 

Dannager

First Post
That would not be consistent with how they operate, though. They focus on their core competencies of making the Pathfinder printed RPG (and printed accessories) and running an online store. Online tools are NOT amongst their core competencies. Just like they've licensed minis and are not interested in doing them in house.

Paizo just released a pair of iOS apps that were not licensed out for development. They are Pathfinder-branded and list Paizo as the publisher. Now, granted, these are two fairly minor apps that handle little more than a virtual deck of cards, but it's hard not to see it as Paizo dipping a toe in the water.

I think we're starting to see the point where major publishers will feel the pressure to have an in-house software team (one that does more than manage their website) to provide tools to their player base. It's sort of the natural progression.
 

IronWolf

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I thought they made Hero Lab "an" officially licensed character builder - not "the" officially licensed character builder (though I may be mis-remembering).

I think it might be "the". Here is the announcement from Hyrum:

paizo.com - Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Compatible Products from Other Publishers / Archives / Hero Lab Partners with Pathfinder RPG!


DaveMage said:
That would not be consistent with how they operate, though. They focus on their core competencies of making the Pathfinder printed RPG (and printed accessories) and running an online store. Online tools are NOT amongst their core competencies. Just like they've licensed minis and are not interested in doing them in house.

Now, granted, they could choose to make online gaming tools a core competency, but that would mean a major shift in focus, and I don't think that the Pathfinder brand is enough to support an online division on its own. (At least, not one that could get quality products to market with any speed. Better to contract with a company that serves multiple clients and has the infrastructure in place to provide such support.)

Yeah - as a small company they seem to tend towards outsourcing to strong partners. Which I think can work well for a small company.

They did release their iPad apps recently though....
 

IronWolf

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Paizo just released a pair of iOS apps that were not licensed out for development. They are Pathfinder-branded and list Paizo as the publisher. Now, granted, these are two fairly minor apps that handle little more than a virtual deck of cards, but it's hard not to see it as Paizo dipping a toe in the water.

Yeah - the iOS apps definitely seem to indicate a dipping of the toe into the water. Supposedly they are working on something bigger, though details are foggy at best.

I don't see it being a character generator though as they have Hero Lab for that and Lone Wolf has stated plans for an iPad version once they release the Mac version they are working on.
 

Theo R Cwithin

I cast "Baconstorm!"
Do you feel that your reasons for not wanting computers to be required line up with the reasons I outlined a few posts earlier (i.e. wanting to feel in full control of your own game)?
What exactly is wrong with wanting to be in full control of my D&D?
I want to be able to restrict or expand the game.
I want to be able to disallow arbitrary official sources, and allow arbitrary 3pp sources.
I want to have a game with 90% houserules.
I want to be able to play without a subscription or microtransactions.
I want to be able to play when the lights go out, or in a cabin in the woods, or in a third world country.

It's a game, for criminy's sake, not a wife or the CIA. I should be in full control of it!
 

Hussar

Legend
What exactly is wrong with wanting to be in full control of my D&D?
I want to be able to restrict or expand the game.
I want to be able to disallow arbitrary official sources, and allow arbitrary 3pp sources.
I want to have a game with 90% houserules.
I want to be able to play without a subscription or microtransactions.
I want to be able to play when the lights go out, or in a cabin in the woods, or in a third world country.

It's a game, for criminy's sake, not a wife or the CIA. I should be in full control of it!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

However, there are limitations inherent in that model that have to be recognized as well. Endless edition churn being the most obvious. As sales of more and more niche books continue to drop, you're going to get a new edition of the rules, necessitating buying the same core books over and over again.

I mean, it's not like this is limited to D&D. Pretty much every RPG out there, once it hits a certain level of success, starts down this path. They have no choice really. It's simply the reality of book sales.

So, while it's perfectly fine to want 100% control over your game, that control comes at a cost which is new editions every so often.

Digital has the advantage of not requiring new editions to be released as digital editions can simply be added on an changed. You don't need to buy Essentials - you can have pretty much everything from essentials in your DDI sub. When 5e comes out, it's very likely that it will simply add onto 4e rather than replace since that's the most economically feasible.

In fact, my prediction is that we won't see 5e all at once. We'll continue to see incremental shifts, like Essentials, every couple of years, all driven by continued subscriptions to the DDI.
 

Dannager

First Post
What exactly is wrong with wanting to be in full control of my D&D?

Nothing. As I pointed out earlier, I understand the position, even if I don't feel the same need.

I might note, however, that the defensive tone might lead one to believe that you feel as though your desire to control your own game of D&D is under assault. And, from a certain perspective, you'd be right. You're swimming against the current, I'm afraid.

I want to be able to restrict or expand the game.
I want to be able to disallow arbitrary official sources, and allow arbitrary 3pp sources.
I want to have a game with 90% houserules.
I want to be able to play without a subscription or microtransactions.
I want to be able to play when the lights go out, or in a cabin in the woods, or in a third world country.

It's a game, for criminy's sake, not a wife or the CIA. I should be in full control of it!
I believe that, increasingly and at a society-wide level, more and more people are accepting that they do not need to be, because they're beginning to appreciate the upsides of giving up a small part of that control.
 
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