Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

ShinHakkaider · Jul 13, 2011

Dannager said:
The fact that you see this as giving up your entire game to the company speaks quite a lot.

You are not giving up anywhere near full control of your game to the company. You are relying on their service to run your game, but that doesn't mean that you're giving them your whole game, or control of it.

Okay then I think we're talking about two different things here. I thought that you were the advocate for game companies taking their entire business model on line behind a pay-wall. Essentially, if you want to play the game you have to subscribe to access the rules, character creation, etc. With no printed material support. If that's not what you're advocating then I apologize. My mistake.

However if that is what you're advocating then I dont see how that's NOT giving up almost total control to the company in question.

Bedrockgames · Jul 13, 2011

Dannager said:
The number of people with DDI subscriptions who are also on the D&D community forums is over 56,000 last time I checked.

More importantly, though, what does "only" mean? Are you saying that hundreds of thousands of dollars of monthly revenue is underwhelming? The consensus, as far as I've seen, is that 50,000+ subscribers to a digital tabletop gaming service is pretty phenomenal, and is certainly unprecedented in the industry.

50k is an underwhelming number of subscribers imo. Especially when they are being beat in book sales by paizo and people are suggesting that doesn't matter because they sre moving to a digital suscrption model. I am just not seeing enough evidence that would shake my initial reaction that 4e is doing less well than expected.

In terms of profit i dont think they are recoupong as much as you think they are. First they had to pay to create it, plus they have to pay upkeep it. On top of that they still have the normal costs of running a company.

I do think ddi is impressive. And it is an interesting model. However i think there are two issues they face: lots of people don't want to be locked into a mobthly subscription fee ( especially if they dont spend over 100 bucks a year on d&d books) and the d&d market is pretty split it seems in the wake of 4e.

BryonD · Jul 13, 2011

Dannager said:
The number of people with DDI subscriptions who are also on the D&D community forums is over 56,000 last time I checked.

More importantly, though, what does "only" mean? Are you saying that hundreds of thousands of dollars of monthly revenue is underwhelming? The consensus, as far as I've seen, is that 50,000+ subscribers to a digital tabletop gaming service is pretty phenomenal, and is certainly unprecedented in the industry.

I'd say that if we graciously presume that only DMs, exclusively, subscribe, and every single one of them has 4 players, then 250,000 players representing THE brand name game in D&D is a real let down.

Yes, they are making a ton of money. But just speaking as a fan of the hobby, how big WotC's stack of money is does nothing for me if the health of the hobby pays for it.

And I will absolutely accept that WotC is free to makes them the biggest possible pile of cash. Good for them!!!!

And "unprecedented" numbers are pretty meaningless when you are doing something new.....

Not to mention it is less than 1% of WOW's subscriber base.

BryonD · Jul 13, 2011

Hussar said:
But, you still have six people sitting around pretending to be an elf. Nothing else actually changes.

For tools I absolutely agree.

For VTT I don't. If you have six people together then I'd much rather have a real table top. If you can't get together, I can and will play VTT. I've done it. It is a lot of fun. But it is clearly a separate tier of experience compared to be being face to face with people.

So I'm pro VTT and HIGHLY pro online / electronic tools. But anything that takes away from the face to face is a change for the lesser.

Bedrockgames · Jul 13, 2011

BryonD said:
For tools I absolutely agree.

For VTT I don't. If you have six people together then I'd much rather have a real table top. If you can't get together, I can and will play VTT. I've done it. It is a lot of fun. But it is clearly a separate tier of experience compared to be being face to face with people.

So I'm pro VTT and HIGHLY pro online / electronic tools. But anything that takes away from the face to face is a change for the lesser.

I agree with this. Vtt is somethinh i do when we cant get the group together. I also do it to game long distance. But its always my second choice. I would much rather use a real tabletop.

BryonD · Jul 13, 2011

Bedrockgames said:
However i think there are two issues they face: lots of people don't want to be locked into a mobthly subscription fee ( especially if they dont spend over 100 bucks a year on d&d books) and the d&d market is pretty split it seems in the wake of 4e.

I think there are a lot of examples out there that cut against your first point. (Not that there are not plenty of example that support you, but I think the overall market is very much present)

People subscribe to all kinds of services. Online subscriptions services do very well. Just look at Netflix.

And in gaming you can look at WoW, and even a wide range of FAR less successful games than WoW that still have more than 50,000 subscribers. And you can also look at Paizo whose service base is highly different than WotC's, but the fact that "subscription" is a key word in both their business models is no random chance.

As far as I am concerned, WotC has hit a home run in their DDI business model. But they could have had hundreds of thousands, maybe even into 1,000,000+ if we assume an alternate history with actual fanbase growth.

They got an awesome engine, that could really use a lot more fuel.

Theo R Cwithin · Jul 13, 2011

Dannager said:
I think you may be overstating the case for the desire to disconnect, and for the desire to search out types of entertainment that don't involve any computers.

In all fairness, I said "computer-only" entertainment, not entertainment "involving computers".

Bedrockgames · Jul 13, 2011

I was being unclear. Obviously there is an appetite for subscription services but how many table top gamers wsnt to pay monthly for a games that used to require only three core book purchases.

Dannager · Jul 13, 2011

ShinHakkaider said:
However if that is what you're advocating then I dont see how that's NOT giving up almost total control to the company in question.

You're the CEO of a company. You make use of a distributor who fits your needs nicely when it comes to marketing and supplying your customers with new product. You pay your distributor on a regular basis. You rely on them for the success of your business. If they fall apart or drop your contract, you will have to make changes to your business. You might have to go with new distribution channels. You might have to start over from scratch when it comes to certain client relationships. But at no point during any of this did you ever give anything like total control of your business to your distributor.

There is a difference between reliance and abdicating control. That difference is crucial to understanding why society is moving in the direction it's moving today.

Dannager · Jul 13, 2011

Bedrockgames said:
50k is an underwhelming number of subscribers imo. Especially when they are being beat in book sales by paizo and people are suggesting that doesn't matter because they sre moving to a digital suscrption model. I am just not seeing enough evidence that would shake my initial reaction that 4e is doing less well than expected.

Just how many books do you think Paizo or WotC sells on a monthly basis, I wonder?

In terms of profit i dont think they are recoupong as much as you think they are. First they had to pay to create it, plus they have to pay upkeep it. On top of that they still have the normal costs of running a company.

And when those costs turn out to be way, way less than $6 million on an annual basis?

Also, the "running the company" part is subsidized by all the other things WotC does that aren't D&D. D&D only has to cover its share.

Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

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