Pathfinder 1E Paizo Copyright Issues at Obsidian Portal?

rangerjohn · Jul 10, 2011

I personally don't blame Lisa or Paizo. I just don't see a solution to the problem.
I can see where as things presently stand that they feel they had to do what they did. On the other hand as a lawyer you know everything sets precedent.
What Paizo did isn't bad, but the next company probably won't be so friendly. In the end I feel everyone will lose. Unfortunately, the world is not what we would like it to be. It just seems this hobby is just destined to be one more thing lost to 'progress'. The world changed and the hobby didn't keep up. This is no one's fault and at the same time everyone's fault.

Marius Delphus · Jul 10, 2011

A couple of notes:

The only matter relevant to copyrights that's in the US Constitution is in Article I, Section 8: the bit where the US Congress is granted the power "[t]o promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries...." The actual copyright laws are not part of the US Constitution; they are US Federal law (Title 17 of the United States Code -- US Federal statutes).

The "loud stereo" thing is a flawed analogy, as already pointed out.

Even if the thumbnail images are fair use (something defined in US Federal law, not in the Constitution), it's Obsidian Portal's right to determine how they'll respond to a notification that copyrighted artwork is being distributed (at whatever size, resolution, or what have you) by one of their account holders.

https://www.obsidianportal.com/terms-of-service

Something tells me OP (like, I think, most contributor-centered web services) would prefer to play it safe as regards the IP of third parties. And I note that OP wasn't asked to, and didn't, go and delete the images in question -- the account holder did, apparently out of spite or something. So if anybody's being unreasonable here, I have a very hard time seeing how in heck it could be Paizo (and it seems to me that OP is "A-OK" too).

Umbran · Jul 10, 2011

pawsplay said:
Hypocrisy by who, precisely?

You may have missed it, but we have already asked that this portion of the discussion be dropped (back around post #57). We ask that it remain dropped for the duration of the thread. Thanks.

pawsplay · Jul 10, 2011

TheAuldGrump said:
Gah, my inner Grammar Police popped up and yelled 'whom!'

I blame you for that.

The Auld Grump

"By who" is correct. In this case, who is standing in for the subject of the sentence. "By whom" would be correct if I was saying Hypocrisy was standing uncomfortably close to someone.

Umbran: Duly noted. I missed the warning upthread.

pawsplay · Jul 10, 2011

I tend to be of a generous mind when it comes to IP, but if there's doubt in my mind about whether I should allow something, I would probably send a C&D. It doesn't actually cost me anything but a stamp or a quick email, nor does it injure the person receiving it. And if I actually had to take legal action later, in that situation, or a different one, I would be better shielded against a charge of sueing in bad faith, since I could show I was consistent in trying to defend my IP.

Right or wrong, taking a card that has copyrighted art, then replacing the text with text of your own to create a derivative work with the exact same format, used for the same purpose, is the very thing copyright was devised to prevent. It's the same thing that prevents me from taking the entirety of Star Wars, redubbing the soundtrack with lite jazz, and sharing the result on the Internet "for my personal use" and the viewing pleasure of thousands.

TheAuldGrump · Jul 10, 2011

pawsplay said:
"By who" is correct. In this case, who is standing in for the subject of the sentence. "By whom" would be correct if I was saying Hypocrisy was standing uncomfortably close to someone.

Umbran: Duly noted. I missed the warning upthread.

An easy way to check is to replace 'who' with 'he' and 'whom' with 'him' - in this case 'whom' is still correct. 'By him' as opposed to 'by he'. 'Him' would be the proper subject, so therefor the proper choice is 'whom'.

Strunk & White's is the best guide.

But my comment was more about the fact that my Grammar Cop popped up than about which is correct... I thought that I had him trained better than that.... I was mocking my reaction rather than your choice of words - there has been much worse grammar on these boards, and some of it has been mine own.

(In particular, I think that my use of the semicolon has fallen to nil; it is a sad day when the comma is used to link two completely separate clauses.)

The Auld Grump

pawsplay · Jul 10, 2011

TheAuldGrump said:
An easy way to check is to replace 'who' with 'he' and 'whom' with 'him' - in this case 'whom' is still correct. 'By him' as opposed to 'by he'. 'Him' would be the proper subject, so therefor the proper choice is 'whom'.

Strunk & White's is the best guide.

But my comment was more about the fact that my Grammar Cop popped up than about which is correct... I thought that I had him trained better than that.... I was mocking my reaction rather than your choice of words - there has been much worse grammar on these boards, and some of it has been mine own. (In particular, I think that my use of the semicolon has fallen to nil; it is a sad day when the comma is used to link two completely separate clauses.)

The Auld Grump

Strunk & White is good for most formal writing, but is somewhat dated, and is not comprehensive.

In this case, the implied phrases could be, among others (assuming singular masculine):
- The hypocrisy is by him.
- The hypocrisy is of his doing.
- The hypocrisy is his.
- He has committed hypocrisy.

Only in the first case is whom the correct replacement. "Whom" is acceptable, but in this case you are implying a phrase which is itself ambiguous. A clearer example of the ambiguity between use and form would be the phrase:

Who is committing hypocrisy?
The person committing hypocrisy is he. He is the one committing hypocrisy.

Who are you accusing of hypocrisy?
He am I accusing of hypocrisy.

which as you will note is gramamtically intact but incorrect in usage. Most people would say, "I accuse him."

One rule of style is simply "don't write who/whom in sentences where the replaced word is a subject," but that's pretty draconian. In that case I should have said:

You wish to accuse whom of hypocrisy?

Marius Delphus · Jul 10, 2011

Ugh. No, please, no grammar debates.

[Because I can't resist. Technically, "by whom" is always correct and "by who" is never correct. When "who/whom" is the object of a preposition, it's always "whom," not "who" (just as it's always "him," not "he").]

pawsplay · Jul 10, 2011

Marius Delphus said:
Ugh. No, please, no grammar debates.

[Because I can't resist. Technically, "by whom" is always correct and "by who" is never correct. When "who/whom" is the object of a preposition, it's always "whom," not "who" (just as it's always "him," not "he").]

Technically correct according to whom? "I am he" is technically correct.

TheAuldGrump · Jul 10, 2011

pawsplay said:
Strunk & White is good for most formal writing, but is somewhat dated, and is not comprehensive.

In this case, the implied phrases could be, among others (assuming singular masculine):
- The hypocrisy is by him.
- The hypocrisy is of his doing.
- The hypocrisy is his.
- He has committed hypocrisy.

Only in the first case is whom the correct replacement. "Whom" is acceptable, but in this case you are implying a phrase which is itself ambiguous. A clearer example of the ambiguity between use and form would be the phrase:

Who is committing hypocrisy?
The person committing hypocrisy is he. He is the one committing hypocrisy.

Who are you accusing of hypocrisy?
He am I accusing of hypocrisy.

which as you will note is gramamtically intact but incorrect in usage. Most people would say, "I accuse him."

One rule of style is simply "don't write who/whom in sentences where the replaced word is a subject," but that's pretty draconian. In that case I should have said:

You wish to accuse whom of hypocrisy?

Actually, S&W is updated frequently and is considered comprehensive.

In other words - it is 'By whom' not 'by who', always.

Who did it?
He did it.

It was done by whom?
It was done by him.

Who did what now?
You remind me of the babe....

What babe?
The babe with the power.

What power?
The power of voodoo.

Who do?
You do.

Do what?
Remind me of the babe....

The Auld Grump