Gencon: Any non-Essentials content coming up?

Tony Vargas

Legend
Certainly not from the perspective of a player who's running a Knight, Slayer, or Scout. From their perspective, why should they give a fig if their advancement is different than a Mage?
Well, they had to decide which class to play. Maybe that just meant a preference for an archetype, but maybe mechanics were a factor, that would mean needing some passing understanding of each class - each of which works differently in Essentials+. Or, they may wish to play more than one character - of more than one class - over time, and need to un-learn some of what they learned about how D&D characters work when they do. And, of course, there will likely be other classes around the table, each advancing in their own way...

So, yes, even the player playing a single one of the more simplistic classes is going to encounter the increased complexity that Essentials brings to the table. Whether they care, is, as you point out, a separate issue. Just because something is complex doesn't mean that complexity is going to be a problem for everyone - or anyone.

As you note, when you look at them singly inside their own silo, they are in fact simpler. I think it's fairly obvious that's what folks are talking about when they mention simpler options.
Oh, I agree. That was the point, really. Essentials didn't make the game simpler or easier to learn, rather the opposite - but, it did give simpler options that could provide a much simpler gaming experience to a player directed to them by more experienced players.

Take the Knight and it's stances & aura (above). Even if the DM is a stickler for tracking them, they're not any /more/ complicated than picking at-wills and deciding whether or not to mark - and, they can be 'left on,' so while the player (or someone at the table) needs to remember they're 'on,' he doesn't need to worry about them every round. And, again, even if that aspect is no less complicated, the lack of dailies, lack of choice of encounters, and the after-the-attack nature of the class's only encounter make it that much simpler to build and to play.
 
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FireLance

Legend
Perhaps a good secondary point to this whole stance and aura things would be if DMs permit the aura and stance to be on when the fight starts.

If so that is another line of actions to do, sure the same every fight, but something else to forget.
Well, according to the rules:
Stance

An effect type. When a character uses a stance power, the character assumes a stance of some kind.

Duration: A stance lasts until the character assumes another stance or until the character falls unconscious or dies. A stance also ends at the end of the encounter, unless the stance can be assumed at will.​
Hence, at-will stances, such as the knight and cavalier's defender aura and the knight and slayer's basic stances, continue from encounter to encounter.
 

Dice4Hire

First Post
Well, according to the rules:
Hence, at-will stances, such as the knight and cavalier's defender aura and the knight and slayer's basic stances, continue from encounter to encounter.

That is one way of reading it. Assuming it is turned on in that encounter, I certainly would do it this way. But turning it on out of combat and it staying on till the cows come home, the sun goes nova or there is a new encounter is just not how it works.

With most stances it does not matter, but some do.
 

But turning it on out of combat and it staying on till the cows come home, the sun goes nova or there is a new encounter is just not how it works.

With most stances it does not matter, but some do.

What's the matter with a knight activating his defender aura when he puts on his armor in the morning?

Having to activate that class ability in the first encounter is not something I've encountered online before, and I strongly disagree with that interpretation.
 

Dice4Hire

First Post
What's the matter with a knight activating his defender aura when he puts on his armor in the morning?

Having to activate that class ability in the first encounter is not something I've encountered online before, and I strongly disagree with that interpretation.

That was not really my point. But to answer it, where does it say abilities are active all day, and do not need to be activated in combat? That is how every power I know works.

And it is a power, not a class feature.

But run it how you like.
 

Perhaps a good secondary point to this whole stance and aura things would be if DMs permit the aura and stance to be on when the fight starts.

If so that is another line of actions to do, sure the same every fight, but something else to forget.

Rules as written say that the stance does not end at the end of the encounter if it's At Will. And even if they end every five minutes (gratuitous), you can simply refresh them every four as a minor if you're alert for trouble.

Rules as Intended: Aspect of the Pouncing Lynx for the Hunter has the effect of granting +4 to Initiative Checks. This does absolutely nothing if you bring it up after combat has started and is more or less the main benefit of the aspect. In order to be able to use it, the Hunter must be able to keep his stances up out of combat.

Therefore if the DM is not permitting the PC to keep At Will stances up when the fight starts then he's house ruling. It's not a question of if DMs permit the stances to be on. It's if they (unintentionally) house rule to nerf the E-Martial classes by preventing them being on.

That is one way of reading it. Assuming it is turned on in that encounter, I certainly would do it this way. But turning it on out of combat and it staying on till the cows come home, the sun goes nova or there is a new encounter is just not how it works.

Um... see above. According to the rules as written, the stance does not end at the end of the encounter. This has already been demonstrated. If you are a pedantic DM and want the At Will stance to end after five minutes as that is the only other way the stance will arbitrarily end then all that needs to be done is every four minutes on anything even approaching the alert, in character the PC can refresh his stance. This takes two minor actions every four minutes, and is generally pointless. The only time At Will stances (or Defender Auras) fall without it being a trivial precaution to bring them back up is in an Extended Rest.
 

Klaus

First Post
That is one way of reading it. Assuming it is turned on in that encounter, I certainly would do it this way. But turning it on out of combat and it staying on till the cows come home, the sun goes nova or there is a new encounter is just not how it works.

With most stances it does not matter, but some do.
But that *is* how it works. At-will stances can be assumed at any time, and remain "on" until the character falls unconscious or changes stances. Conan is always ready.
 

Marshall

First Post
How about spending no action to change your stance and then just using a basic attack? Is that simpler? Because it's what people who want simple mechanics do with knights.

Because you keep missing the point that spending no action is still making a decision. You havent moved, changed or eliminated a decision point, you've ONLY increased the complexity of that decision. Instead of a player deciding between At-will A and At-will B he is forced to make multiple decisions.
Do I want to change my stance? Pick from up to 7 options.
Can I change my stance? Y or N
What else could I do with this minor action? Almost Infinite options(Hyperbole, but enough that any hint of Paralysis is activated)
The ONLY thing that stances could have accomplished was to make one choice obvious and, again, at-wills do that BETTER.

There is absolutely no basis in fact that "I basic attack" is simpler than "I Hit it with My Sword" assuming HIWMS is mechanically an at-will basic attack with +1ab or "I Hit it Hard with My Sword" assuming HIHWMS is an at-will basic attack with +2 damage.

Which is adding overheads to the people that don't want them.

No, its not. If you dont want it dont use it. By definition you are already playing tactically ineffective.

That each power is different. Or at least has a different name. And having different ones just makes it fiddlier.

I call BS on this one. No one, and I mean NO-ONE, will find it more difficult to decide between using Power Strike I and Power Strike III. If someone had that kind of inability to make a decision than you wouldnt be able to have tactical engagement at all.

Um. No. People find stances simpler. Not everyone does But many do. You are doing your best to ignore this. And presenting them in the worst possible light.

I'm ignoring it because its not true in the least. The stance mechanic is the least intuitive and nearly the most complex idiocy brought in by essentials. They took an extremely simple and intuitive mechanic and broke it into several different parts over multiple actions. At-wills have ALWAYS been a default choice kind of item. The only thing you are pointing to with these stances is a couple new simple at-will powers that are hidden among them. See HIWMS and HIHWMS above.

Shall we have a look at the numbers?

Absolutely, you come in a fraction of a percentage point above a base 4e class at-will spamming. Wonderful. Add in that the player is going to be tactically inept and you may as well take the sheet away during combat and just have him roll dice.

snip <aura discussion>

Look at what happens when a Knight/Slayer falls unconscious.

This is why I am looking forward to the Essentials Sorceror. So that there is a spellcaster that's as simple to grock as the swordswingers.

Why? You've already seen it. This is just the "Striker" Wizard build. I fully expect to see Sorcerer(Wizard) in Plane Below.
 

Because you keep missing the point that spending no action is still making a decision.

If and only if you mysteriously assign the same overhead to an option to change things that need not be taken, and a certainty of changing things. This simply isn't so. The default "not change" works.

You havent moved, changed or eliminated a decision point, you've ONLY increased the complexity of that decision. Instead of a player deciding between At-will A and At-will B he is forced to make multiple decisions.

Congratulations. You have just demonstrated that every filing system known to man makes decisions more complicated than not having a filing system. More decision points and fewer options at each decision point is quite simply easier to manage than just laying out as many options as possible all at the top level. This is why we have filing systems. This is why we categorise.

There is a limit to the number of options that the human brain can process at once in the short term memory. Seven plus or minus two is the normal human rule of thumb. And how people group matters a lot (which is why we use mnemonics to aid memory). There is also research that one difference between a grandmaster and an unskilled one is that grandmasters don't see the wrong moves. And from my own experience of playing chess this fits (I was far from a grand master but not bad at all).

Now you almost certainly see the right moves. You are a skilled player. It's simple for you. And for me. But in classic AEDU, the at will and the choice of target are made as part of the same action.

Assume a seventh level fighter (i.e. just had the third stance and third encounter attack power) and no daily powers. Assume four possible targets.

Decision tree for e-class goes like this.
1: Which stance do you want? (3 options)
2: Who do you want to attack? (4 options)
3: Do you wish to Power Strike? (2 options)

Yes, there are 24 options there on the table. But at no point does the actual list the PC needs to face exceed four (except on the move action). All three can be done fast.

Decision tree for non-e class goes more like this.
1: Who do you wish to attack (4 options) and with what (5 options)? These multiply for twenty different options on the same decision point. Yes, 20 is less than 24. But that's 20 options to sort through at once. That's hideous.

Before you mention breaking out a burst is one option, not four, you are right - but on the other hand a power like Hack and Hew that hits two targets gives six combinations of two targets on its own (and would be 12 if there was a difference between the attacks).

Do I want to change my stance? Pick from up to 7 options.

Name the class with seven stances please. (Unless you've grabbed stances with utility powers). Even thieves only get tricks at levels 1, 1, 4, 7, and 17 for five. That sounds like pedantry until you remember the Seven Plus Or Minus Two rule above.

There is absolutely no basis in fact that "I basic attack" is simpler than "I Hit it with My Sword" assuming HIWMS is mechanically an at-will basic attack with +1ab or "I Hit it Hard with My Sword" assuming HIHWMS is an at-will basic attack with +2 damage.

Until you have the decision point thrown in.

No, its not. If you dont want it dont use it. By definition you are already playing tactically ineffective.

Apparently in your world there is no difference between playing sub optimally and sticking your underpants on your head, your pencils up your nose and saying "wibble".

Absolutely, you come in a fraction of a percentage point above a base 4e class at-will spamming.

Where a fraction of a percentage point for the Barbarian vs Slayer comparison includes a +1 to hit. Which is about 7% on its own. More at higher levels. (Especially as you are having less trouble with encounter powers as a Slayer due to the changed decision point). A slayer outperform a non-raging Barbarian (and he outperforms th slayer when raging). But at low levels where I made my comparison, you don't do much more than At Will Spamming. At higher levels the gap grows until you take dailies into account (especially with the right bracers being lower level).

Look at what happens when a Knight/Slayer falls unconscious.

Yes. Unconsciousness ends stances and auras. Your point? If knights are attacked while unconscious they don't have stance or aura running. This is about the one time it drops by RAW without basic precautions. ANd honestly, marks and defender auras dropping with unconsciousness is good thing. Or are you talking about night attacks here and catching the PCs asleep when most warrirors, Fighter or Knight, will be crippled by having taken their armour off?

Why? You've already seen it. This is just the "Striker" Wizard build. I fully expect to see Sorcerer(Wizard) in Plane Below.

Sorceror is a separate class from wizard. I'm expecting something along the lines of elemental stances and two attacks - single target and burst 1. Not a further build of Mage (which is utterly indistinguishable from an AEDU class for obvious reasons). I want to be able to hand out a blast mage to people who aren't mechanically gifted.
 

MrMyth

First Post
When you make an argument that you state as straight fact, it's common to provide something called "supporting evidence." Your post just keeps repeating your same thesis statement in different variations with no actual evidence. Your post is all rhetoric and no actual substance.

His claim is actually totally correct. Essentials did not make the game simpler as a whole - it can't do so, since it adds new options on top of what came before.

But I think his point is also somewhat... irrelevant. The issue isn't about the system about a whole, it is about the options availale. What Essentials did was provide simpler options for those who wanted them. Some are bothered by this and see it as 'putting martial back in its place', which... is silly, really, since complex martial classes still exist. Nothing has been taken away from them. I do get those who don't like it and would rather the design space went to material that they prefer... but in the end, the game caters to many people, and it isn't a bad thing that WotC provided options that some folks were asking for.

For myself, I enjoy having both areas available. I don't buy Marshall's argument that Slayers and Knights are somehow more complex than pre-Essentials classes, or that Weaponmasters and Barbarians who never use their Encounter and Daily powers are somehow more effective than a Slayer who stays in one stance all day. That doesn't seem backed up by any reasonable analysis of the classes, nor do my experiences provide any support for his argument that Essentials classes are more difficult to use in actual play. But it's clear I won't be able to convince him of that, and he doesn't seem willing to address any of the actual points being made, so... I'm willing to leave it at that.

I am hopeful that WotC will provide a balanced amount of support for classes in the future. But I can't find any fault in them continuing to push the limits of the system and try and find ways for class design that yields distinct but balanced options for those who want them.
 

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