Villains and Families

Kaodi · Aug 30, 2011

Is it just me, or does it seem that villains rarely if ever have families? And when they do, usually their children are full grown and serve as underlings of the villain or allies of the players. I mean, in the real world, almost all villains have spouses (sometimes more than one; maybe polygamy and D&D could be a forked thread) and children...

This is something that just struck me when I was trying to think up an idea for an example villain for a sort of 101 Strong Female Characters thread. I have become more of a Pathfinder person, so I was thinking of a female human cavalier in her early or mid thirties, with young or youngish children, between maybe 8 and 17, as a starting point.

And to ask the obligatory paladin question: should a paladin avoid killing a parent in front of their young child(ren) if possible?

(Psi)SeveredHead · Aug 30, 2011

Kaodi said:
Is it just me, or does it seem that villains rarely if ever have families? And when they do, usually their children are full grown and serve as underlings of the villain or allies of the players. I mean, in the real world, almost all villains have spouses (sometimes more than one; maybe polygamy and D&D could be a forked thread) and children...

This is something that just struck me when I was trying to think up an idea for an example villain for a sort of 101 Strong Female Characters thread. I have become more of a Pathfinder person, so I was thinking of a female human cavalier in her early or mid thirties, with young or youngish children, between maybe 8 and 17, as a starting point.

And to ask the obligatory paladin question: should a paladin avoid killing a parent in front of their young child(ren) if possible?

Villains don't have kids for the same reason PCs are so often orphans.

In comics, even "paragons of virtue" like Daredevil are willing to kidnap or threaten Kingpin's girlfriend or wife in order to get him to back off. That's not something you want to encourage PCs to do. (Similarly, you don't want to threaten PCs' family, otherwise they'll all be orphans.)

I suppose I'd say "what's the point?" The villain's underaged children are rarely plot-relevant, they're not supposed to be targeted, and any attempt to gain information about them is seen as a threat. I would be surprised if a villain proudly shows the PCs their kids. Having kids around would simply shut down many types of encounters. (You break into the crime boss' house, only to find him playing with his kids. You try to slip back out unseen.)

No, a paladin should not traumatize children like that if they can help it, although on occasion it may be inevitable.

Umbran · Aug 30, 2011

Kaodi said:
I mean, in the real world, almost all villains have spouses...

I think that may depend on who you're calling villains in the real world. Your typical serial killer, if I recall correctly, is usually single.

In the real world, there's a limit to outright personal power - real people don't have boatloads of hit points and magic spells. Real power comes from the ability to maintain a network of folks who will act in your interests.

So, real world villains are typically both smart and charismatic. They also have to stick pretty strongly to the social conventions of the people in their network.

Aeolius · Aug 30, 2011

The Big Bad Evil Gal in my game IS a family.

Inspired by this

and the desire to "recycle" a few baddies from my last game, I devised Diadema, the Blackwater Hag. Diadema is am amalgamated being comprised of a sea hag blood magus, salt hag (offspring of a night hag and sea elf), and the deathlock of a night hag, reanimated by the powers of blackwater (Stormwrack).

Temptest, the sea hag blood magus, is the daughter of the shellycoat (greenhag) Meir, who in turn is the daughter of the night hag Xaetra. Salkt, the salt hag, is the daughter of Xaetra by her union with a sea elf. The deathlock arose from the body of Xaetra herself.

So, there you have it.. mother, daughter, and granddaughter all in nice neat package....

Did I mention she was a bard?

Barastrondo · Aug 30, 2011

Villains frequently have families in, say, samurai or martial arts dramas where you're emphasizing the bloody and never-ending cycle of revenge. You kill the villain, his child swears vengeance. The hero realizes someday the child may come to kill him, and perhaps then if the hero has children of his own, then they'll swear vengeance, and so on. There's an obvious nod to this in Kill Bill, which is of course based on such movies.

Usually I note that villains don't have families in D&D games, because D&D games rarely have the moral of "killing someone, no matter how much they may deserve it, is a bad thing with inevitable bad consequences." You're expected to kill them in D&D. A lack of family tends to justify the players' lethal solutions, so it's basically pragmatic for a style of play in which you expect the players to feel justified going for lethal solutions.

Of course, D&D is also about monsters, so monsters can parody and pervert the concept of "family." Nobody feels too bad killing the many young of a giant spider-queen, and wasn't the dragon from Dragonslayer a mommy?

Whizbang Dustyboots · Aug 30, 2011

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
The villain's underaged children are rarely plot-relevant

They're pretty damned critical and awesome in "Kill Bill."

I would be surprised if a villain proudly shows the PCs their kids.

Only if they're an Austin Powers-style villains aware of their status. In real life, most villains believe themselves to be heroes of their own personal tales.

(Psi)SeveredHead · Aug 30, 2011

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
Only if they're an Austin Powers-style villains aware of their status. In real life, most villains believe themselves to be heroes of their own personal tales.

They might still think of the PCs as antagonists, rivals or outright enemies.

Bedrockgames · Aug 30, 2011

Kaodi said:
Is it just me, or does it seem that villains rarely if ever have families? And when they do, usually their children are full grown and serve as underlings of the villain or allies of the players. I mean, in the real world, almost all villains have spouses (sometimes more than one; maybe polygamy and D&D could be a forked thread) and children...

This is something that just struck me when I was trying to think up an idea for an example villain for a sort of 101 Strong Female Characters thread. I have become more of a Pathfinder person, so I was thinking of a female human cavalier in her early or mid thirties, with young or youngish children, between maybe 8 and 17, as a starting point.

And to ask the obligatory paladin question: should a paladin avoid killing a parent in front of their young child(ren) if possible?

In movies and books I definitely see plenty of villains with family. In fact the villain who cares for his family and dotes on his daughter or son but is merciless and cruel at "work" is something of a trope IMO (this was pretty thoroughly done in The Sopranos---with Tony but with other characters as well). Take Caligula from I, Claudius..or Livia, both Villains with strong family connections.

When I design villains I always get a mental image of their family and family life. It helps define them more.

That doesn't mean you need to wave the family in the PCs faces to make them feel bad all the time. It may not even come up in play if it isn't relavent to what is going on. But it is certainly something to draw on for future adventures and good details to have if the player s investigate your villain's background.

Cor Azer · Aug 30, 2011

I have plenty of villains with plot and non-plot relevant family. Not all of them, sure, but enough that it's not particularly noticeable when they do.

At the very least, it's a way to give the BBEG more "screen time" without risk of the PCs offing him early.