Gender modifiers: the other side of the coin

RUMBLETiGER · Sep 2, 2011

*Sniff*, I really wanted to be a Swanmay.... :.-(

Celebrim · Sep 2, 2011

I think the term 'fan service' applies to Red Sonja. Red Sonja may be something that women can adopt as their image, in the same way that some men might be willing to adopt Edward Cullen as an image, but I don't think that Red Sonya is how women see themselves or how they normally want to be seen.

I find the question of, "Why can't a women be more like a man?" interesting in the light of the claim that 'in real life humans express sexual dimorphism, but in a fantasy it would not be necessary for them to do so.' While the claim is certainly true, isn't that literally fantasizing about women being more like a men? The song in 'My Fair Lady' is funny on one level because it attributes to men many traits that they self-evidently do not have, but it is only funny because the claims are being made with deliberate irony.

'Red Sonya' and similar characters aren't distaff counterparts designed to appeal to a female audience, but rather a deliberate object of sexual fetishism to its predominately male audience marketed in fiction with a predominately male audience. They are essential the author providing, usually to a male adolescent or grown male-child with limited experience of females - of which Henry Higgins is an excellent and intentional example - the wish fulfillment of a women who is literally more like a man in every way. This serves as a less scary more accessible sexual object for the adolescent. After all, what could be more attractive to a persumably hetrosexual male than an an aggressive, sensual, animalistic, masculinized, unashamedly naked women who - unlike her real world atheletic counterpart - nonetheless possessed the gravity defying figure of the silluttes found on some of the mudflaps of long distance truckers.

Red Sonja isn't a part of the feminist movement; she's a backlash against it. Red Sonja isn't saying, "I'm comfortable with gender differences and capable of respecting women and treating them as equals despite them." The whole point of Red Sonja is, "Wouldn't it be really great if women really were more like men!"

Call me a sexist if you like, but I don't find that to be more mature or more empowering to real women whatever it does for your fantasy ones.

jonesy · Sep 3, 2011

Celebrim said:
...Red Sonya...

Just a minor clarification:

Red Sonja is the chainmail bikini clad Conan-foil by Roy Thomas, who is later reincarnated into the new Red Sonja.

Red Sonya on the other hand is Howard's more conservative East-European renaissance pistolier. I remember hearing speculation that she might have been intended to meet Solomon Kane at some point, since their stories took place so close to each other in time and location. That would have been something.

Celebrim · Sep 3, 2011

jonesy said:
Just a minor clarification:

Red Sonja is the chainmail bikini clad Conan-foil by Roy Thomas, who is later reincarnated into the new Red Sonja

Thanks for the clarification. I've never read Howard's Solomon Kane works. I guess I should look that direction at some point.

HoboGod · Sep 3, 2011

Celebrim said:
I think the term 'fan service' applies to Red Sonja. Red Sonja may be something that women can adopt as their image, in the same way that some men might be willing to adopt Edward Cullen as an image, but I don't think that Red Sonya is how women see themselves or how they normally want to be seen.

I find the question of, "Why can't a women be more like a man?" interesting in the light of the claim that 'in real life humans express sexual dimorphism, but in a fantasy it would not be necessary for them to do so.' While the claim is certainly true, isn't that literally fantasizing about women being more like a men? The song in 'My Fair Lady' is funny on one level because it attributes to men many traits that they self-evidently do not have, but it is only funny because the claims are being made with deliberate irony.

'Red Sonya' and similar characters aren't distaff counterparts designed to appeal to a female audience, but rather a deliberate object of sexual fetishism to its predominately male audience marketed in fiction with a predominately male audience. They are essential the author providing, usually to a male adolescent or grown male-child with limited experience of females - of which Henry Higgins is an excellent and intentional example - the wish fulfillment of a women who is literally more like a man in every way. This serves as a less scary more accessible sexual object for the adolescent. After all, what could be more attractive to a persumably hetrosexual male than an an aggressive, sensual, animalistic, masculinized, unashamedly naked women who - unlike her real world atheletic counterpart - nonetheless possessed the gravity defying figure of the silluttes found on some of the mudflaps of long distance truckers.

Red Sonja isn't a part of the feminist movement; she's a backlash against it. Red Sonja isn't saying, "I'm comfortable with gender differences and capable of respecting women and treating them as equals despite them." The whole point of Red Sonja is, "Wouldn't it be really great if women really were more like men!"

Call me a sexist if you like, but I don't find that to be more mature or more empowering to real women whatever it does for your fantasy ones.

I agree on all points, except it's not a male thing, it's a masculine thing. My girlfriend is a masculine women, she embodies the violent, competitive, hypersexual image of Red Sonja. She can be empowered by it; she even finds it hot. I am a feminine man: nonviolent, noncompetitive, and modest. I am minimalized and disempowered by it; I can't deny my own attraction to it, though.

PureGoldx58 · Sep 3, 2011

Red Sonja wears more than Conan ever does, she is REALLY being more respectable than Conan. Red Sonja isn't where you want to go with the whole comics and fan service thing, because it is one of the few instances where it makes more sense and she is wearing more than her male counterpart.

Use any other character from pretty much any other comic and you would be right.

Now on the topic of modifiers: No. I've seen men weaker than my last girlfriend, who was a very masculine/violent/tough female even though she was 5'4" and 110lbs.
Women aren't really that much weaker than men. A female's kick hurts about as much as a male's punch without any martial training or practice.
That isn't sexism, that is physics and location of center of gravity.

Ashtagon · Sep 3, 2011

PureGoldx58 said:
Red Sonja wears more than Conan ever does, she is REALLY being more respectable than Conan. Red Sonja isn't where you want to go with the whole comics and fan service thing, because it is one of the few instances where it makes more sense and she is wearing more than her male counterpart.

Sorry, but you really don't have any idea what you are talking about. Chainmail bikinis are not armour, and the tendency for tender bits of flesh to get caught between the links (I'm thinking upper arm here, even if you assume the bikini is actually lined, which most artwork doesn't) would actually make them worse than a plain "handkerchief bikini".