Review of Heroes of Neverwinter (Facebook App) by Atari

Hussar

Legend
On the idea of reviewer=completely unbiased observer.

Ballocks. I'm sorry, but do any of you read movie reviews? Or car reviews? Or, heck, reviews of pretty much anything out there? Reviewers are not unbiased. Reviewers are not there to tell the audience a neutral point of view. Look at virtually any movie reviewer and you'll see that they are most certainly not a neutral observer.

A reviewer reviews based on his or her preferences and makes those preferences pretty clearly obvious. Neuroglyph has done that and done it pretty clearly.

The fact that you are spending time talking about his review means he's done his job well. Criticising him for doing what a reviewer should do is pretty strange.

Look at his criticisms. Do you agree with them? Do you disagree? Think about what he's actually written. THAT'S what a reviewer should be doing. Forcing the reader to actually consider different viewpoints.

Dull, dry presentation of "facts" without interpretation is not a review.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
I didn't go into it expecting to feel like I was playing D&D on a tabletop; I expected a D&D-themed Facebook game, which is pretty much what I got!


Yup. It's a good way to keep the brand in front of the eyes of a whole lot of people. They plugged the hell out of the brand on The Big Bang Theory recently, too. It's all gotta be good for the game and tabletop gaming overall.
 

Dannager

First Post
To the OP, I'm on your side. Don't make a "D&D" game if it can't even have the fundamentals of a D&D game, simple.

I think you might have some odd ideas of what the fundamentals of a D&D game are. Adventure, monsters, treasure, magic - those are fundamental to D&D.

The difference between getting a +2 to attack when you're across a monster from an ally as opposed to next to a monster with an ally? That ish is not fundamental.

The app is just pure crap

It's being pretty universally acclaimed as one of the most advanced, enjoyable Facebook apps to date. So, I mean, maybe you don't like it, but I think your problem has more to do with the format than the game.

and if it had been more in line with 4E-rules and the classes and races better, than yes, I'd be introducing this to my friends.

Here's an idea: introduce your friends to actual Dungeons & Dragons. Because if the game were in-line with 4e's rules, classes, and races, then that's exactly what they'd be playing anyway.

This is a casual introduction to the game. And those of you who say it sucks as a casual introduction need to take about twenty steps back and put yourselves in the shoes of someone who would actually need a casual introduction to D&D.

Atari needs to just...stop making D&D games. They clearly don't know what they're doing.

Atari is responsible for some of the best-reviewed D&D games ever made.
 

Dannager

First Post
On the idea of reviewer=completely unbiased observer.

No one is saying this. I'm not sure where you got this idea.

Ballocks. I'm sorry, but do any of you read movie reviews? Or car reviews? Or, heck, reviews of pretty much anything out there? Reviewers are not unbiased. Reviewers are not there to tell the audience a neutral point of view. Look at virtually any movie reviewer and you'll see that they are most certainly not a neutral observer.
Ostensibly, reviewers are supposed to support a "neutral" point of view, or at least represent the point of view of their average readership. Good reviewers keep that in the back of their mind while playing/watching/reading through (and later analyzing) the game/movie/whatever in question - something might irk them personally, but unless they feel it would also irk their average audience, they'll disregard it for the sake of the integrity of the review.

A reviewer reviews based on his or her preferences and makes those preferences pretty clearly obvious. Neuroglyph has done that and done it pretty clearly.
That's fine, if your preferences and review criterion are close enough to your audience's to make them useful. This thread, however, makes it pretty clear that Neuroglyph's style of review doesn't provide the sort of information or viewpoint much of his audience is looking for in a review.

The fact that you are spending time talking about his review means he's done his job well.
Reviews are not high art. Critical discussion of their content does not elevate them.

Criticising him for doing what a reviewer should do is pretty strange.
And if he were doing what a reviewer should do, you would have a point. We've pointed out, however, that he has not reviewed this product. He has compared it to another game in another medium and another format and found it lacking for the sake of the medium and the format. But if I'm the sort of person looking to play in that medium and that format (that is, I'm the sort of person who might be interested in a review of a casual, Facebook D&D app), then criticizing the game on account of its medium and format tells me nothing; I've already accepted their inherent strengths and limitations, and what I'm looking for is whether or not the game provides an enjoyable play experience that takes advantage of those strengths and limitations.

Look at his criticisms. Do you agree with them?
Most of them, yes. But unfortunately his real criticisms of the game are buried in a pile of lackluster comparisons to a different game.

For a perfect illustration of why the "review" style of comparing a game to a different game and finding it lacking is a terrible way to review something, look at the Metacritic scores of Dragon Age 2.

The original Dragon Age (Origins) has a Metacritic score of 86. Dragon Age 2 has a score of 79. That's only seven points lower. And you know why? Because professional reviewers know what they're doing. Yes, the second game made some significant departures from the first, but it remained an enjoyable play experience, and the job of a reviewer is to tell you whether or not you should go out and buy the game.

But user reviews? Those reviews done by random guys on the internet?

They're terrible.

Dragon Age 2 has an aggregate user review score of 4.4 out of 10. Meanwhile, Dragon Age: Origins? 7.5. If we translated these to a 100-point scale, Dragon Age 2's user review score would be 31 points lower than Dragon Age: Origins'.

Again, difference in professional review scores? Seven. Difference in user review scores? Thirty-one.

Why is this? Because random internet guy after random internet guy showed up to complain about how Dragon Age 2 sucked compared to Dragon Age: Origins.

Well great. That's awesome if I loved Dragon Age: Origins and am so fickle with my gameplay demands that changing the game will ruin the series for me, no matter how enjoyable a game the sequel is. But if I'm new to the series? Suddenly I don't want to play Dragon Age 2, because the whole internet seems to hate it.

So review-by-comparison is terrible, and puts you on the same level as the hundreds of random internet people who pop into aggregate review sites to give a game a big fat zero-point-zero because it's different than what they're used to.

For an even more ridiculous illustration of how random people make terrible reviewers without reasonable rubrics, see this story on Portal 2's after-launch user reviews. Of course, after people actually played the game (and read the scores of professional reviews lauding it as one of the best games ever made - it has a professional aggregate score of 95), the user review score began gradually climbing to where it is now. But initially? Some people were angry that it didn't measure up to another game (in this case, Portal), and it caused the aggregate user review score to spiral into meaninglessness.

Do you disagree? Think about what he's actually written. THAT'S what a reviewer should be doing. Forcing the reader to actually consider different viewpoints.
What different viewpoints? I don't read reviews to find out what other people took away from the game compared to what I took away - after all, I haven't even played it yet if I'm combing through reviews. I read them to find out if I'll enjoy it. Ideally, I won't have to read multiple reviews. In fact, ideally, I should be able to hit up an aggregate review site and make purchase decisions based on its aggregate score and perhaps a handful of summarized bullet points.

Dull, dry presentation of "facts" without interpretation is not a review.
No one is asking for dull, dry presentation of facts. Facts are good, and an author's viewpoint that does its best to account for the audience of a review (and the intended audience of the product in question) is also a good thing.

What I don't want is a review for a wheelchair that sums up by saying the wheelchair is crap because how are you supposed to run a marathon in this thing?

And if anyone's interested, here is a list of recent news articles and reviews discussing Heroes of Neverwinter. Spoiler: they're generally positive.
 
Last edited:

Dannager

First Post
Yup. It's a good way to keep the brand in front of the eyes of a whole lot of people. They plugged the hell out of the brand on The Big Bang Theory recently, too. It's all gotta be good for the game and tabletop gaming overall.

Is this something you know? As far as I'm aware, the show's creators are generally responsible for products (games, movies, comics, etc.) appearing in BBT.
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
Is this something you know?


What's to know? The FB app is a good way to keep the brand in front of people. BBT plugged the hell out of D&D by featuring it prominently on the show.


As far as I'm aware, the show's creators are generally responsible for products (games, movies, comics, etc.) appearing in BBT.


Really? My "They" wasn't meant to imply who plugged it, just that it was plugged. Does "As far as I'm aware" mean that you actually have some inside knowledge of the product placement process? I'd love more details if you actually have them.


As far as a review of the app is concerned, I haven't played it so I can't really judge that yet. However, D&D has become a brand no longer exclusive to RPGs, for quite some time now, so if the owners of the property wish to have games with that brand on them across multiple platforms (RPGs, boardgames, computer games, apps, etc.), FB seems a fine enough place to attract some attention to the brand as any other.
 

Dannager

First Post
Really? My "They" wasn't meant to imply who plugged it, just that it was plugged. Does "As far as I'm aware" mean that you actually have some inside knowledge of the product placement process? I'd love more details if you actually have them.

My mistake, I thought you were implying that the D&D team was responsible for its product placement in BBT.

As for how this sort of thing works, I don't have any insider information, beyond knowing that when it came to the D&D episode of Community, it was the Community guys who came up with the idea and approached WotC to make sure everything was kosher with them producing the episode. I'm inclined to think that's how it typically works, but I don't know that there are enough examples of D&D being shown off on network television for there to really be a "typical" anyway.
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
My mistake, I thought you were implying that the D&D team was responsible for its product placement in BBT.

As for how this sort of thing works, I don't have any insider information, beyond knowing that when it came to the D&D episode of Community, it was the Community guys who came up with the idea and approached WotC to make sure everything was kosher with them producing the episode. I'm inclined to think that's how it typically works, but I don't know that there are enough examples of D&D being shown off on network television for there to really be a "typical" anyway.



It's my understanding that most product placement is purchased. Community wasn't using current products so maybe they actually needed permission on that score. BBT has used a number of current games as parts of scenes, but I don't recall them being named except for D&D 4E and Magic. I've seen them play Talisman unnamed.

There's a discussion of this here -

What game was played in 'Big Bang Theory' the 6th October 2011 in the US? | BoardGameGeek | BoardGameGeek

And more info here -

http://www.brighthub.com/video-games/family/articles/120097.aspx
 



Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top