How a ****ing cantrip exterminates an entire school of magic. NO MORE OF THAT!

Jimlock · Oct 23, 2011

I just worship the illusion school. Silent Image, Phantasmal Force (AD&D), are my favorite spells. Illusions are, (the way I see it anyway) the epitome of magic. When we say that a wizard can distort reality, illusions are the first thing that spring to my mind.

Illusions = Creativity let loose.

Yet, no matter how cool those illusions are, or how powerful they might look... the end result is that they ALL get tramped by a single cantrip ... the accursed DETECT MAGIC (and its big brother = Arcane Sight)

I 've been searching about this in the web the past few days (on old threads of the site ...and of others), and thankfully I found out that there are a lot of gamers out there who share the same opinion, and they were mostly DMs, whining about how they can't make a proper trap or decent illusion based encounter without having this cantrip ruining it for them. Worst case scenario? A character who gets a permanent detect magic/arcane sight on him. This is bye bye to the DMs plans.

Examples of this tiny divination thwarting every possible encounter based on illusions are endless (traps, disguises, secret doors etc etc etc...). Admittedly, this sucks.

The simplest explanation one can give, as to why this happens is the following:

The power of an illusion is that it deceives you for being real. Once you know its an illusion, it loses all it's power. And Detect Magic, this 0 level miracle, grants you this ability without even a miss chance, not to mention arcane sight....
All other schools of magic do not lose their power once detected. Even abjurations, or other traps with necromancy, enchantment and stuff do not get all that weakened, because even if you detect them, you still have to find a way to overcome the actual effect. Illusions on the other hand, are COMPLETELY useless once detected.

To be more precise, so as to fathom the full extent of this problem, lets see which (and consequently the big number of) spells that get thwarted by Detect Magic and its derivatives.

1st level:
Disguise Self (100% busted)
Silent Image (100% busted)
Ventriloquism (it is arguable... but still possible in some situations)

2nd level:
Minor Image (100% busted)
Phantom Trap (100% busted)
Invisibility (Very difficult to thwart during combat because of the 3 round process and the rotation of the cone which might cost more time. Outside of combat though, an infiltrator gets 100% busted, no matter the 50% miss chance. He's busted. Arcane sight tears Invisibility apart. You instantly get to pinpoint and allow for attacks with a 50% miss chance as well as area effects. Also 100% busted in case of infiltration)
Mirror image (Almsot Impossible to thwart in combat. Arcane Sight nails it if the real PC "carries" other auras on him... which is the case 99,999% of the time...)

3rd level:
Invisibility Sphere (As Invisibility)
Illusory Script (100% busted)
Major Image (100% busted)

4th level:
Hallucinatory Terrain (100% busted)
Illusory Wall (100% busted)
Invisibility, Greater (Detect magic will prove to be almost worthless cause this one is used in combat only, Arcane sight though, breaks it, as usual)

5th level:
Mirage Arcana (100% busted)
Persistent Image (100% busted)
Seeming (100% busted)

6th level:
Mislead (100% busted)
Permanent Image (100% busted)
Programmed Image (100% busted)
Veil (100% busted)

7th level:
Invisibility, Mass (As Invisibility)
Project Image (Only Arcane sight can truly help here... it's VERY helpful to know you are not fighting the real thing)

No need to mention that the minimum 3 round process of detect magic is NO PROBLEM AT ALL in situations outside of combat (Most of the above spells will be detected in situations outside of combat). When searching rooms, interacting with disguised NPCs and stuff a character usually has enough to plenty of time to use Detect Magic.

Now a few solutions I've found to this problem, in order to balance out Illusions and Detect Magic (+ Arcane Sight accordingly), are the following possible house rules:

(Those are not to be combined. Each one is a separate solution)

1. When Detect Magic and derivatives are about to detect Illusions, the caster gets a chance to disbelieve. If the roll succeeds the detection spells function as per RAW.
If the roll fails, the caster get's no reading at all (no auras are detected).

2. Illusions have no magical auras. Detect Magic and derivatives are useless on illusions. In this scenario Illusions can only be thwarted through disbelief when possible as per RAW and through all other spells such as See Invisibility, True Seeing etc.

3. A caster casting an Illusion spell has the possibility to set whatever magical aura he wishes to the effect he creates/manifests (no further action required, as part of casting the spell). The caster if he so wishes may not implement an aura at all. When detect magic and derivatives get a chance to detect illusions they detect auras as set by the caster of the illusion, or no aura at all (no reading at all), if the caster of the Illusion had decided to put no aura to his spell.

4.A caster casting an Illusion spell has the possibility to set whatever magical aura he wishes to the effect he creates/manifests (no further action required, as part of casting the spell). The caster if he so wishes may not implement an aura at all. When Detect Magic and derivatives are about to detect Illusions, the detection caster gets a chance to disbelieve. If the roll succeeds the detection spells function as per RAW.
If the roll fails, the caster get's to read the aura set by the caster of illusion (if another aura was set) or no reading at all (if no aura was set).

This is a combination of 1 and 3

....Personally I prefer #3. Surely the most advantageous to Illusions.

Tell me what you think.

Jack Simth · Oct 23, 2011

First off, a handful of your notes on busted spells are dead wrong - for instance: Simulacrum is an Instant spell, not a Permanent one - which means that after the time wears off... there is no aura of illusion anymore.

Secondly, a handful of your notes on busted spells are partially wrong - for instance: mirror image only lets the caster of Arcane Sight know what's up; everyone else still has to suck up the miss chance.

Additionally, the vast majority of these bustings depend on a particular DM interpretation - that knowing there's an aura of illusion about meets the 'no save required' clause in will disbelief; this is not necessarily true, and will vary by DM.

Further, you can foil a lot of things with other spells and simple tactics; Magic Aura will change the aura of items, and Misdirection will do it for yourself or creatures (with no save to either, I might add). The combination lets you have any magical aura you want (set a nearby rock to the aura you'd like via Magic Aura, give that to yourself via Misdirection), and have anyone else have any magical aura you want (same method, but you cast Misdirection on the other person). What good is it knowing who all has an aura of illusion on them when almost everyone does?

Finally, there's a number of ways to beat divinations - Nondetection specifically opposes "detect spells", the Insidious Magic feat (Player's Guide to Faerun), and probably a few other methods will do so.

So really, the issue isn't "Detect magic is Uber!" it's "Spellcasters play chess when they're opposing each other, and you're not sufficiently familiar with the rules of the game to work the illusion angle properly when opposing another spellcaster"

Edit: Oh yes, and there's a number of non-sneaky items that have an aura of illusion about them - the Cloak of Displacement (lesser or greater), the Elixer of Swimming, or the Robe of Scintillating Colors. Just because someone is carrying an aura of illusion does not mean they're not who they say they are.

Crothian · Oct 23, 2011

That's really bad luck if you have a disguise self spell up and someone happens to be in the area and casts detect magic. And then you stand around in range for three rounds so the caster can precisely determine where the magical aura is and make his spellcraft check to it is of the illusion school.

RUMBLETiGER · Oct 23, 2011

Just another reason why Warlocks are Awesome.

Jimlock · Oct 23, 2011

Jack Simth said:
Simulacrum is an Instant spell, not a Permanent one - which means that after the time wears off... there is no aura of illusion anymore.

busted

You are correct sir.
I'll edit that.

Jack Simth said:
Secondly, a handful of your notes on busted spells are partially wrong - for instance: mirror image only lets the caster of Arcane Sight know what's up; everyone else still has to suck up the miss chance.

Yep, but being (probably) a caster he can end this with numerous spells + he can shout directions, Like "Corgan! the one on your left!" or "The middle one!" or "The next to the door!"... players playing before the enemy will get it right easily.

another example?

Jack Simth said:
Additionally, the vast majority of these bustings depend on a particular DM interpretation - that knowing there's an aura of illusion about meets the 'no save required' clause in will disbelief; this is not necessarily true, and will vary by DM.

Oh.. come on... once you know it's an illusion, its game over. It's automatic success. Every time this has happened in my games the illusion was worthless afterwards.

as for disbelief:
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

If a DM says that identifying something as an Illusion does not count as interacting with this something in some fashion, is CLEARLY houseruling.

Perhaps you can provide an example encounter that counters this somehow?

Jack Simth said:
Further, you can foil a lot of things with other spells and simple tactics; Magic Aura will change the aura of items,

As you said it: "of items". Very restricted as most of illusions are not applied on items.
Plus, do you know how many such spells you need to cast on an average PC so that he registers no auras at all?

Jack Simth said:
and Misdirection will do it for yourself or creatures (with no save to either, I might add).

again, it only applies to person or item. Majority of Illusions can't benefit from this.

Jack Simth said:
Finally, there's a number of ways to beat divinations - Nondetection specifically opposes "detect spells"

again, it only applies to person or item.

Jack Simth said:
the Insidious Magic feat (Player's Guide to Faerun), and probably a few other methods will do so.

Yeah... like every body uses the shadow weave... something reserved almost exclusively for Sharans.

Jimlock · Oct 23, 2011

Jack Simth said:
So really, the issue isn't "Detect magic is Uber!" it's "Spellcasters play chess when they're opposing each other, and you're not sufficiently familiar with the rules of the game to work the illusion angle properly when opposing another spellcaster"

I'm afraid you are missing the point of my post... entirely.

Sorry to say so but this has nothing to do spell casters batting it out.

The point is that a 0 level spells gets its way with an entire school of magic.

Also note that my suggested houserules do not make the spells you mentioned useless, for they can be used for many a school of magic.

Jimlock · Oct 23, 2011

Crothian said:
That's really bad luck if you have a disguise self spell up and someone happens to be in the area and casts detect magic. And then you stand around in range for three rounds so the caster can precisely determine where the magical aura is and make his spellcraft check to it is of the illusion school.

This has nothing to do with luck...

You are suspicious of someone being magically disguised? You cast detect magic...and... voila!

Tovec · Oct 23, 2011

Out of order, sorry.

Jimlock said:
This has nothing to do with luck...

You are suspicious of someone being magically disguised? You cast detect magic...and... voila!

First, if the illusionist is giving them a reason to be suspicious then they're doing it wrong.
Second, if that person casts detect magic they have to wait three rounds.
Third, if the illusionist is in some fashion a CASTER then they have 3 rounds to cast.... ray of enfeeblement, fog, finger of death..... whatever they need to get away with the deed and/or get away.

Jimlock said:
Yep, but being (probably) a caster he can end this with numerous spells + he can shout directions, Like "Corgan! the one on your left!" or "The middle one!" or "The next to the door!"... players playing before the enemy will get it right easily.

Well, with mirror image, its never as simple as 'the middle one'. Plus if that information helps it is only during the caster's turn. The mirror images stick close and are constantly moving to re-scatter the effect. The caster will also be able to tell the spell is probably mirror image but a good spellcraft check does that anyway. Keep in mind detect magic says (after three rounds) that the spell is an illusion. It doesn't automatically tell you what kind, where, how long, etc.

Oh.. come on... once you know it's an illusion, its game over. It's automatic success. Every time this has happened in my games the illusion was worthless afterwards.

IT IS CERTAINLY DM INTERPRETATION.
Worthless, sometimes sure. Always I'd have a hard time believing. Keep in mind, in 3.5 they can only cast detect magic so often. Yes if they THINK they're encountering illusions then they're going to detect to be sure but then the spell duration expires and they have to cast it again. If you give anyone a reason to think its an illusion then you are sunk. The caster just happens to be better at defeating illusions because they can cast them.

If the enemy, even an illusionist, is giving the party precious time during combat not to fight but to cast cantrips then they are doing something seriously wrong.

as for disbelief:
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

If a DM says that identifying something as an Illusion does not count as interacting with this something in some fashion, is CLEARLY houseruling.

Once again, I disagree. Until the caster goes and walks through the dragon they aren't encountering it. They can "know" its an illusion the same way then can tell others it is an illusion but until they interact with it - you didn't bold the interact part - then they can't see through it. Interactions with illusions and conveying this knowledge provides a +4 bonus for other people if you tell them. I'd give a caster that same bonus for themselves for being clever enough to try it. Granted, they have to wait 3 rounds to do it but I think I've made my point on the subject.

From the SRD:

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus

If I had a real issue this is the closest I'd have to houserule it.

..

On everything else, I'm not getting into that. But whenever I've used illusions in my game it has been very effective, be it as a player or DM. As either, I pick my spots and make sure not to use them when they'll be easily detected. Don't give them a reason to detect magic or give them too many and the illusions are great again.
Throw in some REAL things too.

Plus I do know for a fact there are countless bonuses to add to illusions to make them really effective even if they are detected. Yes a few are cherry picked from obscure books but the fact remains that if you make it correctly a successful saving throw still grants them 60% of the damage, and 130% if they fail - and not everyone has detect magic to beat the effect.

Jack Simth · Oct 23, 2011

Jimlock said:
busted You are correct sir.
I'll edit that.

Yep, but being (probably) a caster he can end this with numerous spells + he can shout directions, Like "Corgan! the one on your left!" or "The middle one!" or "The next to the door!"... players playing before the enemy will get it right easily.

Ah... you're looking at from 3-9 targets to distinguish from, which aren't generally going to be nicely lined up. Try tossing out a handful of identical marbles in close proximity to each other and then telling someone which one you want in a handful of seconds in such a way that the other person gets it right reliably. And, of course, there's other methods for making sure that the only aura that registers on you is one of minor illusion, so even the Wizard can't tell... despite the little issue that several of your things should have Transmutation, Abjuration, or Evocation auras. Incidentally, they're also Illusion spells.

Jimlock said:
another example?

Project Image. Sure, it's useful to know what you're facing isn't real... but a critter produced by Greater Shadow Conjouration has the same aura as does a projected image... and both can kill you. Just because it's not real doesn't mean you can ignore it. It's also a really fun way of shooting people from around corners.

Jimlock said:
Oh.. come on... once you know it's an illusion, its game over. It's automatic success. Every time this has happened in my games the illusion was worthless afterwards.

Detect Magic penetrates barriers. How do you tell the difference between someone who's wearing a hat of disguise, and someone who has an Elixir of Swimming in his pocket? You just learn that there's an illusory effect there. Oh, wait: Part of that depends on the definition of pinpointing an effect.... DM's call... so if it's bothering the DM....

Jimlock said:
as for disbelief:
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

If a DM says that identifying something as an Illusion does not count as interacting with this something in some fashion, is CLEARLY houseruling.

Perhaps you can provide an example encounter that counters this somehow?

Ah, you misunderstand. I didn't say it doesn't justify a save, I said it doesn't necessarily permit an auto-pass.

Jimlock said:
As you said it: "of items". Very restricted as most of illusions are not applied on items.
Plus, do you know how many such spells you need to cast on an average PC so that he registers no auras at all?

Depends on your caster level. In general, you can likely get by with just one or two castings per person per day. And it's a first level spell.

But really, if someone is depending on Detect Magic to tell that it's a Phantom Trap? You can be downright evil. There is a Phantom Trap on door # 1. Door # 2 has a mechanical trap, with magic aura on it to make it seem illusory. Door # 3 has a Phantom Trap (which does affect an object), with Magic Aura to remove the magical aura. Door # 4 has a mechanical trap. Door # 5 has a Magic Aura spell cast on it, to make it have an aura of faint Evocation. Door # 6 has a Fireball trap. Door # 7 has a Fireball Trap and a Magic Aura spell to make it seem nonmagical. Door # 8 is completely mundane.

Detect Magic isn't going to tell you which is which. Doors 1 & 2 detect as illusion; Doors 5 & 6 detect as evocation. Doors 3, 4, 7, and 8 don't register. The safe ones are 1, 3, 5, and 8 (fully half of them). A skilled Rogue will tell you that doors 5 and 8 are safe.

Good luck distinguishing. You're going to need to expend more resources to tell which doors are safe and which aren't without actually, you know, trying them.

Jimlock said:
again, it only applies to person or item. Majority of Illusions can't benefit from this.

That's because you're not used to playing chess in this manner. The basic method above for Phantom Trap? There's related methods (using Magic Aura, Misdirection, or both) that work for Illusory Script, Illusory Wall, Disguise Self (and related), Invisibility (and related), and even the Image line. OK, yes, it's really tricky to make a Minor Image not register as illusory. But it's not all that hard to give a real creature an aura of Illusion. If the party is completely ignoring something in battle because Mr. Wizard says it's illusory... and it's not... well... they're not going to be trusting what Mr. Wizard says for very much longer.

Jimlock said:
Yeah... like every body uses the shadow weave... something reserved almost exclusively for Sharans.

Not everybody, no. But there's more than one way to go about it.

Jimlock said:
I'm afraid you are missing the point of my post... entirely.

Sorry to say so but this has nothing to do spell casters batting it out.

The point is that a 0 level spells gets its way with an entire school of magic.

Also note that my suggested houserules do not make the spells you mentioned useless, for they can be used for many a school of magic.

I didn't say they're battling it out. I said they're playing chess. If you don't have someone casting Detect Magic... then clearly, the only caster is the illusionist making the illusions.

If you do have someone casting Detect Magic in such a way as to try and foil the illusions... then clearly you've got two opposed casters. Are the battling? Not necessarily directly. But they are attempting to counter one another.

Greenfield · Oct 23, 2011

Detect tells them that there's magic, and it tells them the school if they make the spellcraft check. Presume that they did.

I've heard people argue that Detect Magic shouldn't blow invisibility. There's a 2nd level spell that does that, and it shouldn't be replaced by the cantrip. My own jury's still out on that one.

Knowing that there's an illusion and seeing through it are two different things. The knowledge gives you reason to make the Save, when one is permitted, and grants you a +4, but that's it.

The fact is that, under the interpretation of many DMs, Illusion is always given away because the players get a Save, and they know they're rolling dice for something. The idea of an automatic Save is wrong, in my opinion, but my opinion only counts when I'm the DM.

Many have played that any physical contact dispels the illusions. That's not in the rules anyplace, and never was, but many still argue that a simple handful of sand tossed at questionable items or objects effectively ends the spell.

So, while Detect Magic is a pain to deal with, it's hardly the end of Illusions, nor does knowing that they're there always constitute a good thing. Further, unless you're playing Pathfinder, there's a limit on how many Detect Magic's they can have per day. So don't let them have always-on detects or detect items if you're the DM, and deal with their obsession with Detect Magic by simply giving them lots of opportunities to burn through their limited supply. Also, for those who have to prepare spells, make them wish they'd taken something else in that Cantrip slot.