Warden L6 Utility "Bears Endurance"

Istar · Oct 31, 2011

How does this work.

The effect is "You gain hit points as if you had spend a healing surge".

This seems simple enough but has us confused.

The trigger is when you drop to 0 hit points or fewer.

So these additional HP's do they take you from zero back up to your healing surge value, or do you have to subtract the damage taken from this ?

It is an Immediate Interupt.

DracoSuave · Oct 31, 2011

As an immediate interrupt, the effects of the power will occur before the action that brings you to zero or below.

As a result, the order will be:

Bear's Endurance
Take damage.

So, you won't likely experience the up-to-zero-than-heal effect.

This however, may have other benefits you may be unaware of. For example, many monsters do extra effects or damage to bloodied creatures. If their attack did the damage at just under bloodied, this might heal you past bloodied, negating the extra damage and/or the extra effects. If they're like dragonborn and have a bonus to hit bloodied creatures, this might actually negate that and invalidate their attack completely.

indecisive · Oct 31, 2011

DracoSuave said:
As an immediate interrupt, the effects of the power will occur before the action that brings you to zero or below.

As a result, the order will be:

Bear's Endurance
Take damage.

So, you won't likely experience the up-to-zero-than-heal effect.

This however, may have other benefits you may be unaware of. For example, many monsters do extra effects or damage to bloodied creatures. If their attack did the damage at just under bloodied, this might heal you past bloodied, negating the extra damage and/or the extra effects. If they're like dragonborn and have a bonus to hit bloodied creatures, this might actually negate that and invalidate their attack completely.

The ability triggers after you take the damage so you do get the up to zero then heal effect. I don't see how you would get past 50% health when you are gaining 25% of your hp.

Nichwee · Oct 31, 2011

indecisive:
The trigger = "drop to 0 or less". But the power is an Immediate Interrupt.
Thus it is assumed to kick in before the trigger, and may invalidate the trigger.
This means you get the healing, THEN take the damage. If the damage amount is modified by conditions that the healing negates then the damage finally taken is changed.
For Example:
1) You have a bloodied value of 50
2) You have a current HP total of 30
3) You are hit for are hit by a monster who does 2d10+10 and an extra 2d6 vs bloodied creatures
4) The monster rolls 26 (7 and 9 +10) on the 2d10+10 and 7 (2 and 5) on the 2d6 for a total of 33.
5) You drop to -3hp and trigger the utility and gain 25hp (surge value) to add to your original 30hp = 55hp
6) You are now not bloodied for the damage calculation so only take 26 damage (the 2d6 no longer apply as that condition was negated by the II)
7) You are on 29hp.

Infiniti2000 · Oct 31, 2011

On the other hand, once you drop to 0 or less you are unconscious and therefore can't take actions, including any immediate interrupts.

Nichwee · Oct 31, 2011

I believe the idea here is you can react to the trigger before it's effects are enactted.
Thus a "hit" can trigger a power before it does damage/imposes conditions and "dropping to 0" can trigger an action before it imposes the condition unconcious which would remove the ability to perform actions.
Otherwise a "hit" that imposed the condition stunned would not be able to be a trigger for any "on a hit" triggerings.

Journeymanmage · Oct 31, 2011

Nichwee said:
I believe the idea here is you can react to the trigger before it's effects are enactted.
Thus a "hit" can trigger a power before it does damage/imposes conditions and "dropping to 0" can trigger an action before it imposes the condition unconcious which would remove the ability to perform actions.....

Agreed. The Immediate Interrupt here (Bear's Endurance), triggers when you drop to 0 or fewer hp. It interrupts the condition caused by being at or under 0 hp -- Unconscious. Thus maintaining any thing lost when you go Unconscious: Stances, Regeneration, Shifter bonuses, Swordmage warding, etc..

DracoSuave · Oct 31, 2011

indecisive said:
The ability triggers after you take the damage so you do get the up to zero then heal effect. I don't see how you would get past 50% health when you are gaining 25% of your hp.

Because Immediate Interrupts are resolved before the action that triggers them resolves, and may invalidate the triggering action completely.

As an example, the Wizard power Shield is an Immediate Interrupt that raises the wizard's AC and Ref by 4 for a time. The reason this power is awesome is the interrupt... something attacks you, and then you use the power. If it gives you enough AC that the attack misses, then the attack becomes invalidated and you've traded an immediate action for a monster's standard action--an EXCELLENT trade for an encounter power.

As an extreme example, let's say your Warden is up against a monster with an minor action that says after its range and all that: 'Can only target a bloodied creature, 5d6+9 damage, plus 3d6 on a crit.' A dickish power, but hey, sometimes dickery is good on a solo.

Monster rolls a crit, and does, say, 50 damage. Warden's got 80 hp max, setting his bloodied at 40, and his surge value at 20. Let's give him swift recovery, make him a dragonborn... so we're looking at probably a surge value of 27 realisticly. BUT! He's at 19 hit points.

How does this all work out?

Well, the 50 damage knocks the warden down... but he uses his immediate interrupt, so time backs up to before the action starts. He's healed from 19 to 46 hit points... thusly he's no longer blooded. Now you re-resolve the offending action from the very beginning. Target: Blooded creature. The power has an illegal target! Thusly it is invalidated. The damage never occurs.

'But how can you back up in time!!?!? What!?!?' That's what the words 'Immediate Interrupt' mean. It means whatever happened... this happens before it. They're the quick reactionary things people do just before something smacks them. Interrupts happen first. That's what they do. And yes, they CAN invalidate actions... that's actually the term the rules use for that sort of situation.

Blood Jester · Oct 31, 2011

Effects all happen after damage

Sequence of events:

-You are hit
-You take damage
(damaging action complete and in the past now)
-You drop to 0 (or fewer) hit points <= [TRIGGER!]
-You use Bear's Endurance to immediately interrupt going below 0
-You do not fall down, you do not drop weapons/items, ongoing effects you maintain do not end, no action needs to be spent reviving you, you are not left vulnerable, etc., etc., etc.

But this does not happen *before* you take the damage, it happens before you fall to/below 0.

You interrupt the trigger. The trigger here in not taking damage, it is hitting the 0 hit point mark.

And yes, those are completely different.

DracoSuave · Oct 31, 2011

Blood Jester said:
Sequence of events:

-You are hit
-You take damage
(damaging action complete and in the past now)
-You drop to 0 (or fewer) hit points <= [TRIGGER!]
-You use Bear's Endurance to immediately interrupt going below 0
-You do not fall down, you do not drop weapons/items, ongoing effects you maintain do not end, no action needs to be spent reviving you, you are not left vulnerable, etc., etc., etc.

But this does not happen *before* you take the damage, it happens before you fall to/below 0.

You interrupt the trigger. The trigger here in not taking damage, it is hitting the 0 hit point mark.

And yes, those are completely different.

Immediate Interrupts occur before the triggering action, and -explicitly- have the ability to invalidate entire actions--see Player's Handbook.

The actual sequence of events is:

You are hit
You take damage
You are knocked below 0 or fewer hit points <--- trigger happens
Bear's Endurance has the Immediate Interrupt action type, and can therefore invalidate entire actions, thus resolution changes:

Bear's Endurance
Maybe you are hit
Maybe you take damage
Maybe you're still knocked below 0 or fewer.

The phrase 'This has already happened' doesn't exist for an ability mid-resolution, and doesn't apply to immediate interrupts.

QV: Immediate Interrupts that move you but are triggered by being hit can invalidate the target step of resolution. Wizard's Escape, for instance.

You're confusing Interrupts with how triggered Free Actions work. Reactions work similiarly as well... they only occur after an action or single square of movement.