General Discussion

Systole · Apr 19, 2012

[MENTION=6667193]sunshadow21[/MENTION] That's fair. I wasn't trying to propse a Handy Haversack 2.0, but if it's easy to pick off that list and do the math, I don't see why it would be an issue.

[MENTION=29558]Mowgli[/MENTION] While I disagree with you, I do respect that line of reasoning, and you've been consistent with it.

jkason · Apr 19, 2012

Systole said:
I personally don't like James Jacobs' ruling, in part because I think it's inconsistent with the fact that you're not actually performing when you use Versatile Performance. If you're not actually playing a flute, for example, then I find it hard to see how a MWK flute could apply its bonus to Handle Animal check.

Ah, see, I always thought you were using some element of your perform, thus the title. So I'd expect someone using Versatile Performance (winds) would, in fact, be using the flute to influence animals (a la Pied Piper) rather than traditionally 'handling' them.

That whole concept gets much muckier with, say, using Strings to Bluff, but (1) That's one of the things I've always found odd about how Versatile's supposed to work fluff-wise, anyway, and (2) I can't remember the last time I saw someone play a bard with an instrument perform, though, so I haven't encountered that particular issue.

In any case, as with all MWK tools, though, if the character isn't using the tool, he or she wouldn't / shouldn't get the bonus. It can't help if it's stowed away.

Maidhc O Casain · Apr 20, 2012

Kalinn has come to the point she needs to purchase a couple of items above Venza's base value. There are several others out there who are itching for better toys on which to spend their cash as well, but Kalinn's conceptual build really lends itself to a few items rather than a stockpile . . . meaning that either the items she has will be expensive, or she'll have a LOT of cash sitting and doing nothing.

Specifically, she's looking at a 13400 GP piece of armor and an 11500 GP sword upgrade. The sword upgrade is Hafísbíta's "awakening," and is courtesy of Satin Knights so I have no idea what it encompasses . . . and frankly, I'm a little scared. Which I find very cool, BTW!

Can we come to a consensus on this here, or should I start a new thread for it?

GlassEye · Apr 20, 2012

I thought the general consensus that we came up with (discussion beginning HERE) when perrinmiller first broached the subject was that one would have to commission the items. I'm not saying that I'm not open to discussing this further, however, it is a large, complex topic which deserves/needs its own discussion thread (particularly since we have been engaging in two other big topics here in this thread without having reached resolution or recording of resolution).

Umm, short answer: new thread, please.

Edit: topic started HERE

jkason · Apr 20, 2012

I found myself with two questions on the Blood of Dragons ability while doing a character approval, and since it has a significant impact on Cythera's next level (thankfully not this one, so I'm not holding up leveling), I wanted to throw it out there.

From that discussion:

perrinmiller said:
Blood of Dragons
A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.

I take it to mean that she gets All Bloodline bonus feats, attributes, spells as if she is a Sorcerer of level = to DD level. If the bonus spell comes when she doesn't have the level in bard to cast it yet, it gets delayed until her spell casting level is high enough.

Mowgli voiced agreement with PM's reading, but I think there are a couple important elements here:

1) The ability says that non-sorcerers gain 'bloodline powers' where sorc level = DD level. Powers are a specific subset of bloodline benefits; they even have their own section. Other abilities in the DD progression specifically reference, for example, gaining bloodline feats, which leads me to believe the writers aren't using 'powers' in a generic sense, but to reference the specific "Bloodline Powers" section of the bloodline.

2) The rest of the entry repeatedly references 'sorcerer,' not 'arcane spellcasting class' or 'dragon disciple,' when it talks about spells. Every other class feature references either 'arcane spellcasting class' or 'dragon disciple,' which makes me think the bonus spells are being explicitly limited to sorcerers.

3) The spellcasting element is the most important, but secondarily, my read is that the DD gains bonus feats per the DD Bloodline Feat class feature, not the DD feature and the sorcerer progression.

The only reference I can find elsewhere to this question is in an archived thread on the GITP forums, so it's hardly canon.

Thoughts?

perrinmiller · Apr 20, 2012

jkason said:
1) The ability says that non-sorcerers gain 'bloodline powers' where sorc level = DD level. Powers are a specific subset of bloodline benefits; they even have their own section. Other abilities in the DD progression specifically reference, for example, gaining bloodline feats, which leads me to believe the writers aren't using 'powers' in a generic sense, but to reference the specific "Bloodline Powers" section of the bloodline.

2) The rest of the entry repeatedly references 'sorcerer,' not 'arcane spellcasting class' or 'dragon disciple,' when it talks about spells. Every other class feature references either 'arcane spellcasting class' or 'dragon disciple,' which makes me think the bonus spells are being explicitly limited to sorcerers.

3) The spellcasting element is the most important, but secondarily, my read is that the DD gains bonus feats per the DD Bloodline Feat class feature, not the DD feature and the sorcerer progression.

It says, Sorcerer level = DD level if qualifying for DD without Sorcerer levels. It uses sorcerer after that, because Sorcerer level and DD level stack with each other. Cannot say Arcane Caster level because DD and Bard do not stack for the bloodline stuff.

re: 3) Actually I read this as they do get both. It is following the tradition of gaining something at every level. DD has slower arcane spellcasting progression than Sorcerers and they are becoming more of a dragon in a shorter span of levels.

Systole · Apr 20, 2012

I have to agree with jkason's reading. A sorcerer bloodline specifies five things: Class skill, Bonus feats, Bonus spells, Bloodline Arcana, and Bloodline Powers.

The Blood of Dragons class ability talks specifically about two of these things: Bloodline Powers and Bonus Spells. In regards to Bloodline Powers, it says that you count DD levels as sorc levels even if your sorc level is 0, so that's pretty well spelled out. With regard to Bonus Spells, it goes out of its way to say "sorcerer" several times, not "sorcerer or bard." I think this was intentional, given that bards and sorcs, while they are both spontaneous arcane casters, are not that similar otherwise. At the very least, bard is a 6 level spell progression with light armor vs. 9 level spell progression with no armor for for sorcs, and bards don't get bonus spells as part of their natural progression. I don't think that's how the Blood of Dragons ability was intended.

Satin Knights · Apr 20, 2012

I am with jkason and Systole on this one.

A Sorcerer 5, Dragon Disciple 4 gets:
Sorcerer Bloodline Powers as Sorcerer 9
Sorcerer Bloodline Arcana as Sorcerer 5
Sorcerer Bonus Feats as Sorcerer 5
Sorcerer Spell progression and known spells as Sorcerer 8
Sorcerer Bonus Spells as Sorcerer 8
Gain Sorcerer class skill: already had it
DD Bloodline Feat received at DD 2
+2 Nat Armor, +4 STR, bite, breath weapon etc as DD 4

A bard 2, Fighter 3, Dragon Disciple 4 gets:
Sorcerer Bloodline Powers as Sorcerer 4
Sorcerer Bloodline Arcana as Sorcerer 0 (none)
Sorcerer Bonus Feats as Sorcerer 0 (none)
Sorcerer Bonus Spells as Sorcerer 0 (none)
Bard Spell progression and known spells as Bard 6
Gain Sorcerer class skill: no
DD Bloodline Feat received at DD 2
+2 Nat Armor, +4 STR, bite, breath weapon etc as DD 4

So, the first character gets the bloodline powers of Claws, a separate 9d6 Breath Weapon and Resist 10/Nat Armor +2.
The second character only gets the Claws and Resist 5/Nat Armor +1.

"~~This ability~~ Blood of Dragons does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell’s level."

A bard does not have sorcerer spell slots, so he does not get bonus spells. A sorcerer does have spell slots as a sorcerer, so he gets bonus spells as the effective sorcerer level, not the effective Bloodline Power level which is a separate ability.