Player vs. Player Discussion

This discussion probably warrants it sown thread.

DalkonCledwin said:

The thing is, I used to play in a Magic the Gathering RPG. And one of the key components of that RPG were PvP duels. This is because of the RPG being based on a Trading Card Game where duels between players were intrinsic components of the game. And I never once saw people having adversarial problems arise due to the duels in the game. On the other hand adversarial problems did arise due to other issues in relation to the game (mainly with relation to the hugely underdeveloped rules sets for the game) but I don't think that is as huge a problem here since this campaign setting is so heavily based on the official rules of Pathfinder.

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Given a situation in the DWI that would have resulted in PvP if there wasn't a rule against it, it is a slippery slope. A 4th level fighter bullying a 2nd level character is not fair, particularly if his companions then join in to swing the odds the other way.

Personally I think the 2nd level character should learn to be respectful and peaceably extricate himself from the situation otherwise he gets what he deserves talking smack to higher level character.

But...
The idea of PvP duels that are regulated with a set of governing rules, and a Judge approval of the match is different matter entirely in my mind. I like this idea and think it should be discussed.

Thanks for splitting the topic out into a more appropriate thread perrinmiller.

As I said in the other thread, I do not like the idea of PvP in the Living Pathfinder world. The issue that arose in the Inn is an excellent example of why we should avoid it. The tensions rose high in that exchange from at least one person I would not have expected. This just goes to show how touchy the topic is.

Beyond that, from many other PbP games I have seen where a character came into a situation with some tension and that just boiled over into the *players* being offended. Some of this is simply due to the nature of text only communication. Tone is completely lost and we can't see body language to know if it just the character being well roleplayed or if it is genuine animosity.

EN World has a very active PbP community outside of LPF where one could certainly build up a set of characters and engage in PvP without needing to do it under the guise of LPF. I see very little to gain by allowing PvP in LPF and a whole lot to lose.

perrinmiller said:

The idea of PvP duels that are regulated with a set of governing rules, and a Judge approval of the match is different matter entirely in my mind. I like this idea and think it should be discussed.

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Taking a look at this idea though, is a different situation entirely.

Dueling to test mechanics and such, without having the roleplaying conflict is not the same thing. Perhaps call it dueling, and leave off that it is PvP.

Back to DK, what would be the rewards or benefits? Since it wouldn't be an adventure, are you looking for XP/GP awards? What about death?

Or is it more of an out of school contest, when the loser is not really dead?

I'm of two minds about using this idea in LPF.

I think, as perrinmiller says, that because it would be regulated with its own set of rules it would in most every situation turn out fine. Even more than this, though, the fact that participation would be voluntary on both sides would lead to happy outcomes - it's not really in any way like the situation with Borris, where one character was pushing the issue, being a bully.

I've never been a fan of PvP, in any format. This may be my only real objection, but I've got to mull it over more to be sure.

If we do allow it, my strong opinion would be that it should have no bearing on experience, gold, or player death. There should be no gain or loss from it, other than the RP opportunities and the chance to 'test' one characters build and one player's use of tactics against another's.

Mowgli said:

If we do allow it, my strong opinion would be that it should have no bearing on experience, gold, or player death. There should be no gain or loss from it, other than the RP opportunities and the chance to 'test' one characters build and one player's use of tactics against another's.

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If this goes to a proposal phase, this is where I would start. I think I would agree with this.

There are some mechanical issues, but I might be willing to try a pilot as a test run.

Mowgli said:

I think, as perrinmiller says, that because it would be regulated with its own set of rules it would in most every situation turn out fine. Even more than this, though, the fact that participation would be voluntary on both sides would lead to happy outcomes...

If we do allow it, my strong opinion would be that it should have no bearing on experience, gold, or player death. There should be no gain or loss from it, other than the RP opportunities and the chance to 'test' one characters build and one player's use of tactics against another's.

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These are the two main points that I would be inclined to make - that 1) if voluntary participation is a prerequisite for PvPing, then hard feelings will likely be avoided, and 2) it should function for its RP/fun/strategy factor - if you add any other benefits, then you begin to ostracize those who, for any number of reasons, don't wish to participate in PvP.

perrinmiller said:

Dueling to test mechanics and such, without having the roleplaying conflict is not the same thing. Perhaps call it dueling, and leave off that it is PvP.

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Mowgli said:

If we do allow it, my strong opinion would be that it should have no bearing on experience, gold, or player death. There should be no gain or loss from it, other than the RP opportunities and the chance to 'test' one characters build and one player's use of tactics against another's.

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If roleplaying conflict is involved then it will be two characters roleplaying conflict which still opens the door for player tensions. I've been in many games where I've had players play out some conflict and depending on severity it nearly always results in the GM having to smooth those tensions out.

Two characters that have resorted to a duel, will they ever be able to reconcile their differences and adventure together again? Will it be a constant source of contention during the course of an adventure together?

If these duels are purely about mechanics, does that really have a place in LPF?

EN World has plenty of PbP threads for people interested in testing mechanics and builds to not bring that level of meta in the LPF realm.

IronWolf said:

The issue that arose in the Inn is an excellent example of why we should avoid it. The tensions rose high in that exchange from at least one person I would not have expected.

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For the record, the way I had my characters react in the Dunn Wright Inn to Fggs character, is how I percieve that they would react in such a situation should they have been real people in the real world. If it were not for the rules against PvP, I agree that it would have been likely that Kalius at least would have attempted to attack Fester after his threat of a curse. Likely failing in said attack since I think Fester is actually higher level than Veniarus and I doubt Veniarus would have backed Kalius up in that attempt based on the way I want to portray the two of them now (Kalius being more of an impetuous youth type, and Veniarus being more of a philosopher type).

For reference sake, I personally was not offended by anything that the character Fester said. I was simply trying to make a point with my character and some of my ooc comments that perhaps did not go as well as I had initially planned. But nothing either of the other two gentlemen in that exchange did or said actually ultimately upset me or caused me to hate either of them. I would be very interested actually in adventuring with both of those characters in the future to better develop relations or tensions between our characters and see where those take us.

perrinmiller said:

Back to DK, what would be the rewards or benefits? Since it wouldn't be an adventure, are you looking for XP/GP awards? What about death?

Or is it more of an out of school contest, when the loser is not really dead?

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In the Magic the Gathering RPG I quoted previously, the game had a rule where in the PvP Arena, people would duel at 15 life, where as outside the arena you used full life (i.e. usually 20 life). Dueling at 15 life would allow you to not have to suffer the effects of death should you be dropped down to 0 by starting at 15 life. Thus duels were rarely ever lethal affairs.

In a similar effect I would propose that all Duels in LPF would likely have to be conducted in a magical arena or similar set up that converted all damage inside of it into Non-Lethal Damage, instead of allowing the damage done inside of it to be potentially lethal. This would prevent characters from potentially dying during a duel.

As for rewards, in the Magic the Gathering RPG there were rarely ever cash rewards, but the winner of the duel usually recieved a very minor Experience Reward. The one exception to this was during the Christmas Season Festival, where the winner of the Tournament would recieve a prize pot or some other prize of some sort (usually a spell gem which was the means by which to increase a characters alotments of magic in that RPG). Though I am not sure that a rewards system is entirely appropriate outside of maybe a major tournament type set up within the LPS system (assuming such a tournament were ever actually implemented).

I like the idea of an arena for PvP. And PvP allowed only in the arena. I envision it as three seperate sections.

A) The fencing floor: A gentleman's room with flat floors, referee and straight toe-to-toe fighting with melee weapons. No magic, no ranged weapons. non-lethal only.

B) The arcanum: The spell duel pit using the UM rules.

C) The Gladatorial Pit: A full arena pit with hazard traps, defensive short walls and enough room for a five vs five battle with a cheering crowd watching. The pit is enchanted the same as the arcanum to protect the crowd. Melee, ranged and magic are all permissible here. The gladiatorial pit can be non-lethal, or for those with a true blood lust, a full lethal battle. To enter a lethal battle, you must provide a scroll of raise dead for every opponent you desire to face. For a non-lethal battle, each contestant must provide a wand of cure light wounds. You get back your wand and/or scroll after it has been used to heal your opponent after the fight. (costs a bit to fight, and don't gain anything other than fame and a badge (see below).)

The arena sells a handkerchief, ribbon banner or amulet that can be worn through the city to signify one is willing to test themselves against a fellow citizen. For each victory, the priests at the arena embroider or mark a new victory token upon item. Defeat in the arena loses your item and you must purchase a new badge of glory to start again. Therefore, the badge shows the current streak for a champion. The first handkerchief for a contestant would be white. After the first, only pastel colors are available. Therefore, a white kerchief with many emblems is a true badge of honor.

Challenging an opponent who is not openly brandishing their badge is a serious social faux pas. Any challenge can be turned down without shame.

Just a few thoughts. That way, those that want PvP can have it, but cannot harass anyone not openly wearing a badge of battle. Purely opt-in that you have to pay for. First level characters are locked out because they cannot afford the healing that must be provided up front. That way we don't get a rush of newbies just looking to pick a fight.

Why? Fighting an ogre can get boring. It isn't optimized. Fighting another PC's barbarian is a great challenge, because it is optimized.

I am, as some know, not a fan of PvP action or confrontational roleplaying between characters that leads to PvP.

I do think there is a place for dueling (PC vs. NPC) and submitted a dueling society proposal for Venza nearly a year ago very similar to SK's option A above. I also have ideas for a lethal gladiatorial pit. I think there is a place for the performance combat and the gladiatorial options from Ultimate Combat.