Fortress America: When Gaming and Politics Collide

Dire Bare

Legend
I find the first version very offensive and totally unrealistic. It matches a warped version of America peddled in classrooms by socialist professors.

The "story" in the first marketing blurb is certainly extreme and unlikely to occur in reality . . . most folks posting in this thread seem to agree, even if some of don't feel the basic idea of America lashing out at the world isn't all that far-fetched.

And if you find it offensive as well, well that's fine, although we disagree and I have a hard time seeing your (and others) point of view on that.

But a "warped version of America peddled in classrooms by socialist professors" is a unfortunate use of hyperbole that is inaccurate, ignorant, and resulting to name-calling. Language like this is why the regular "no politics" rules exist on ENWorld, and it isn't helpful to the discussion at all.

Please continue to post your opinions and participate in the discussion, but please do so with some respect for those whose opinions differ from your own. (not a mod, just a friendly request)
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Samurai

Adventurer
The "story" in the first marketing blurb is certainly extreme and unlikely to occur in reality . . . most folks posting in this thread seem to agree, even if some of don't feel the basic idea of America lashing out at the world isn't all that far-fetched.

And if you find it offensive as well, well that's fine, although we disagree and I have a hard time seeing your (and others) point of view on that.

But a "warped version of America peddled in classrooms by socialist professors" is a unfortunate use of hyperbole that is inaccurate, ignorant, and resulting to name-calling. Language like this is why the regular "no politics" rules exist on ENWorld, and it isn't helpful to the discussion at all.

Please continue to post your opinions and participate in the discussion, but please do so with some respect for those whose opinions differ from your own. (not a mod, just a friendly request)
It wasn't hyperbole, here in California, such people exist in fairly large numbers. I've had classes with some of them back in university, and I lived in the SF bay area for years and knew some there. Heck, the Occupy movement shows how influential they've become.

But that's beside the point, the point is the ridiculous and far-fetched description of the game's events. It literally turns the good guys into bad guys and vice versa, the same as the description I wrote above for Axis and Allies. (I know, some folks don't believe in such a quaint notion as good and bad guys, but again, I direct you to the Axis and the Allied powers in WW2... would you say there was no good or bad there either?) The original game was about the American homeland being invaded on 3 fronts by the Communist Chinese, the Soviet Union, and a group of Latin American Communist revolutionary forces. 3 groups of Communists invading the continental US... what could be more black and white than that?

My father had to flee his country of Hungary when the Soviets invaded and occupied it. He lost most of his family (only his step-mother and 1 aunt made it out) and all his belongings he couldn't carry behind the Iron Curtain and came to America as a refugee, so I have a rather personal dislike of Communist/socialist ideology, and an appreciation for the freedom and democracy we enjoy here in the US. Painting the US as rabid aggressors lashing out and destroying entire countries is disgusting and unrealistic to me, and I'm glad they changed the ad copy. I know there is a move to try and paint things in shades of grey rather than black and white, but calling Communists and terrorists heroes and saviors of the world and the US a vile enemy to be destroyed just goes too far IMO.
 

Remus Lupin

Adventurer
Well, based on your description of college professors, you've certainly got a handle on What qualifies as "ridiculously far-fetched."

But to object to the game on the basis of the idea that it is definitionally impossible for the US to go so far wrong is to a) miss the point of the game and b) exhibit a degree of hubris about US righteousness that actually makes things akin to the narrative o the first description more likely. I prefer my politics sober and pragmatic and my science fiction cautionary and risky.
 

Samurai

Adventurer
Well, based on your description of college professors, you've certainly got a handle on What qualifies as "ridiculously far-fetched."

But to object to the game on the basis of the idea that it is definitionally impossible for the US to go so far wrong is to a) miss the point of the game and b) exhibit a degree of hubris about US righteousness that actually makes things akin to the narrative o the first description more likely. I prefer my politics sober and pragmatic and my science fiction cautionary and risky.

Ok, what is the point of the game? The first edition worked fine with 3 Communist invaders attacking the continental US. What is it in this new version that requires America be evil?
 

S'mon

Legend
Please continue to post your opinions and participate in the discussion, but please do so with some respect for those whose opinions differ from your own. (not a mod, just a friendly request)

Hm, as someone who strongly opposed the Iraq War (sadly, not from the start) and views the US as quite capable of aggression (pre-9/11 Kosovo War vs Serbia, just as much as 2003 Iraq), I didn't see anything particularly offensive in his post and I'm glad this isn't rpgnet where we'd all be required to toe the rpgnet Party Line.

As for goodies and baddies in WW2 - well Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were bad guys, but so was the USSR, which helped Nazi Germany carve up Poland (a military dictatorship BTW) in 1939. Britain, America and France were relatively 'nice' internally, but hardly paragons of virtue in all ways.
 


prosfilaes

Adventurer
Seriously though, you're attempting to undermine my point by saying that my complaining about the complainers is no different than them. That's not correct. They can hold whatever opinions they want; I'm simply saying that their sense of entitlement to have whatever upsets them changed is selfish and harmful.

I don't see them as having any more of a sense of entitlement then you do.

As I said before, this isn't about FFG's response. It's about the narcissists who think that something needs to be altered to suit them.

Why does anyone besides FFG have the right to object to people asking for changes in their product? FFG wants to alter the game to suit them. You're being selfish and harmful in interfering with FFG in its attempt to find out what its customers want.

Those are completely different - in fast food, you have a set of options presented to you; it's part of the menu to have no tomato on your burger. This is more an instance of someone demanding that something not be on the menu just because they don't care for it.

I have never seen it as part of the menu to have no tomato on your burger. If you want arbitrary changes at a food place, there's a good chance they will go along with what you want if they can (at some price).

So you admit there are times when it's okay to ask for changes in a product. Again, there will be one final Fortress America; people aren't asking that it be taken off the menu, they're asking for it to be on the menu in a form edible for them.

You missed the part in my last post where I said that discussion and debate are good. If you're trying to say that I'm trying to silence people, the same way others are trying to silence that which they don't like, then that pretty well shows the fundamental misunderstanding in your point.

Don't tell me there's a misunderstanding; show me.

When your opinion is a demand for conformity, however, then you've crossed the line from a reasonable debate into making an ultimatum (if not an outright threat). That's not good for anybody.

There's no threat or ultimatum involved. I don't know how you think they should conduct a Presidential election in your world; every statement is an assertion that your candidate and only your candidate should be president. That's a much more serious demand for conformity then asking that a reprint of a game have a theme palatable to you.

That's your purview. If the theme is part of what makes other people more likely to buy it and enjoy it more, however, then your demand that the theme be changed is an attack on what they like.

And their statement that they don't want the theme to be changed is an attack on what I like. I don't see why we should dance around the fact that we have different desires for what Fortress America will be and that we can't both win. Let us both advocate loudly for our position, and FFG can choose who to listen to.

Likewise, I've already stated why complaining about them isn't the same - I'm not saying they can't exist, the way their saying that what they like musn't be allowed to exist.

They're not saying that FFG can't exist, either. They're saying that a piece of mass-produced product shouldn't have a certain theme, and you're saying that individual statements of personal opinion shouldn't have a certain theme. I find the latter much more oppressive.
 

Samurai

Adventurer
The premise is the US vs. the world. Are you saying that the position reversed is that America is "the good guys" and the entire world is "the bad guys"? Or am I misunderstanding your characterisation of my, and many others', countries? Because - at least to me - such characterisations are the one thing that would lead to the absurd fictional scenario presented. I certainly hope that's not a generally shared opinion in your country, or we should all start getting really scared as to the fate of the world.




I gotta admit, posts like this make me think this "you can post politics" experiment is a drastic failure. An environment where people call me a communist and a terrorist is not one in which I'm happy to interact.

I'm not calling you a Communist or terrorist (and I have no idea where you got the notion that I was), I'm saying that the game has traditionally had 3 Communist countries invading the US, and the updated version sounds as if it involves terrorists. Is England one of the invading countries in this new edition? It wasn't before. Are they now saying that England will side with terrorists against the US? Shouldn't that be offensive to British people as well as Americans?
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I'm not calling you a Communist or terrorist (and I have no idea where you got the notion that I was), I'm saying that the game has traditionally had 3 Communist countries invading the US, and the updated version sounds as if it involves terrorists. Is England one of the invading countries in this new edition? It wasn't before. Are they now saying that England will side with terrorists against the US? Shouldn't that be offensive to British people as well as Americans?

They're saying what they says in the blurb, presumably - the world rises up against the US. I don't see any mention of communists or terrorists there.
 
Last edited:

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
I don't see them as having any more of a sense of entitlement then you do.

I see a great difference between people who require that something be changed because it offends them, and my pointing out that that's arrogant, narcissistic, and selfish. I'm not saying I'm entitled to anything; they're saying they're entitled not to be offended.

Why does anyone besides FFG have the right to object to people asking for changes in their product? FFG wants to alter the game to suit them. You're being selfish and harmful in interfering with FFG in its attempt to find out what its customers want.

Your questions are built on fundamentally incorrect premises. First, my pointing out the selfishness of the people who require something to not offend their sensibilities in no way impedes FFG from changing their own product. Second, everyone has the right to object to something - they don't have the right to say that because they object to it, it must be altered.

Everyone has things they don't like, and reasons that they don't like it. It's when they say that these reasons constitute a basis for it needing to be changed that they've gone too far.

I have never seen it as part of the menu to have no tomato on your burger. If you want arbitrary changes at a food place, there's a good chance they will go along with what you want if they can (at some price).

Sometimes you have to ask the waiter. :p

Again, you can ask if something can be changed. You can't demand that something be deleted from the menu.

So you admit there are times when it's okay to ask for changes in a product. Again, there will be one final Fortress America; people aren't asking that it be taken off the menu, they're asking for it to be on the menu in a form edible for them.

I always said that it was okay to ask for changes. It's not okay to say that things must be changed for your sake. People are asking for a menu-change - they're saying "I don't like this, make sure it's altered just for me."

Don't tell me there's a misunderstanding; show me.

I just did.

There's no threat or ultimatum involved.

There is. When you say "this must be changed to match my world-view," you're stating that you no longer recognize something's right to exist (as it is now). That's an implicitly threatening statement.

I don't know how you think they should conduct a Presidential election in your world;

I don't know how you conduct debates in yours, since you make flame statements like "how they do things in your world."

If you can't keep the debate polite, perhaps you should consider no longer participating in it.

every statement is an assertion that your candidate and only your candidate should be president. That's a much more serious demand for conformity then asking that a reprint of a game have a theme palatable to you.

This is, again, fundamentally wrong. A more accurate analogy would be to say that a candidate who doesn't agree with you on everything needs to be killed for it.

And their statement that they don't want the theme to be changed is an attack on what I like. I don't see why we should dance around the fact that we have different desires for what Fortress America will be and that we can't both win. Let us both advocate loudly for our position, and FFG can choose who to listen to.

You can advocate your position as much as you want. But when your position is "I don't like this - because of that, you need to change this for me," then you're not advocating anything except that your opinion is somehow more weighty than that of others.

They're not saying that FFG can't exist, either. They're saying that a piece of mass-produced product shouldn't have a certain theme, and you're saying that individual statements of personal opinion shouldn't have a certain theme. I find the latter much more oppressive.

Another fundamentally incorrect statement. They're saying that this must conform to their personal beliefs. I'm saying that no one has the right to make others - or the work of others - conform to their personal beliefs. If you find the former statement less oppressive than the other, then you're misguided.
 

Remove ads

Top