Choose the Illusion: Dungeon Mastering

LostSoul · Jan 6, 2012

ExploderWizard said:
This is certainly true. The greatest thing a DM can ask for is motivated and engaged players. A sandbox game doesn't come together if the players simply look to to the DM and say " Here we are now. Entertain us."

I wonder how much the game system can do here. I mean, if the players really want the DM to entertain them, there's not that much that can be done; but for your average player, even ones who're used to DM-driven games, is it possible to use the system to get the kind of play you want?

The last campaign I ran floundered because of this. Most of the players were used to DM-driven games but I wanted player-driven games, and I was experimenting with the "urban sandbox" which I don't know how to do. The combination made the game drag more often than not.

I've made some changes to my system based on this and I'm starting up again tonight! One of the players is, I think, used to more of a DM-driven game; after he made his PC he started asking about jobs the NPCs wanted him to do, instead of coming right out with a self-defined goal. (Which could be a property of the setting; it may not be exciting enough to grab his interest.) Anyway, it'll be a decent test of the changes I've made.

S'mon · Jan 6, 2012

Fanaelialae said:
The idea that players who prefer a pre-plotted game rather than a sandbox are somehow lacking in some respect is a clear logical fallacy. As I stated before, both styles have their merits and drawbacks.

I've personally known good players who enjoy both styles of game! So what, do they magically turn "stupid and contagious" when playing in a pre-plotted campaign, but become self-motivated when playing in a sandbox?

It comes down to a play style choice, and it really is that simple. There's plenty of creativity to be had in either. It's not even necessarily an either/or choice; my campaigns combine elements from both styles.

If you don't like the pre-plotted style, then don't play it. However don't try to imply that sandbox players are a superior breed; that's both illogical and smacks of badwrongfun.

Sandbox play is more demanding of the players. Linear play is less demanding. You can have good story-path players, and you can have weak sandbox players. IME weak sandbox players are more detrimental than weak story-path players. Arguably this makes sandbox an inferior play style. :lol:

Fanaelialae · Jan 6, 2012

S'mon said:
Sandbox play is more demanding of the players. Linear play is less demanding. You can have good story-path players, and you can have weak sandbox players. IME weak sandbox players are more detrimental than weak story-path players. Arguably this makes sandbox an inferior play style.

Lol, but hardly. Sandbox does demand more from the players in terms of creating plot. However, because the goal of a pre-plotted game is to create an incredible story, it can actually be more demanding in terms of playing a role than a sandbox game. Sandbox games are defined by the players being able to do just about anything. A pre-plotted game, on the other hand, is more focused (though some would say restricted). It's like having a destiny constantly drawing you toward an end; you may not be able to alter it but how you choose to embrace that destiny then defines you.

It's not that it's less of a challenge, merely a different kind of challenge. A good pre-plotted game can be like an improv troupe. You're given a scenario, now run with it and make it grand! A sandbox can be more like a mental duel of wits between the DM and the players. Some may prefer one over the other, but it's silly to say that debating is more demanding than improvisational theater; both demand different skill sets yet both demand skill. At most all that can be said is that one is more left brained, while the other is more right sided. I have an abiding admiration for Richard Feynman, but that doesn't diminish my appreciation of Raphael's artwork in any sense.

A good pre-plot is just as challenging as a good sandbox, to everyone at the table. What I will grant you however, is that because bad pre-plots are one of the easiest types of games to run, examples of them abound.

S'mon · Jan 6, 2012

Fanaelialae said:
A good pre-plot is just as challenging as a good sandbox, to everyone at the table. What I will grant you however, is that because bad pre-plots are one of the easiest types of games to run, examples of them abound.

Well leaving aside the quality of the pre-plot/quality of the sandbox, just talking about the quality of the players, I don't think you have to be great actors or immersive players for a decent Adventure Path to be fun. You don't have to do much other than roll dice. Whereas a decent Sandbox will definitely fail if the players just sit back and wait to be entertained.

If anything, I suspect good APs are harder to write than good sandboxes, because the load is much more on the writer to provide the entertainment. Hence the many crappy APs. There are plenty of sandboxes that turn into litterboxes at the table, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain "This published sandbox is a litterbox!".

Fanaelialae · Jan 6, 2012

S'mon said:
Well leaving aside the quality of the pre-plot/quality of the sandbox, just talking about the quality of the players, I don't think you have to be great actors or immersive players for a decent Adventure Path to be fun. You don't have to do much other than roll dice. Whereas a decent Sandbox will definitely fail if the players just sit back and wait to be entertained.

If anything, I suspect good APs are harder to write than good sandboxes, because the load is much more on the writer to provide the entertainment. Hence the many crappy APs. There are plenty of sandboxes that turn into litterboxes at the table, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain "This published sandbox is a litterbox!".

I've looked at a few APs, but admittedly I've never played one.

That said, I'm not so certain about your conclusion. I suspect that the modular nature of the sandbox may have something to do with the difference. If the caverns of the jester king are terrible, the players simply leave and head to the chasm of doom or the forest of endor. APs are linear in nature and therefore (I suspect) one or two bad modules can have a far greater impact on how the overall AP is received.

In that respect, I suppose you are correct. Good APs are harder to write. However I don't think it has anything to do with rolling dice. You can have that in what many would consider to be a poor sandbox; one that is merely a collection of hack and slash dungeons. Personally, I'm quite certain I'd find any game where we just roll dice to be boring after a short time.

Choose the Illusion: Dungeon Mastering

LostSoul

Adventurer

S'mon

Legend

Fanaelialae

Legend

S'mon

Legend

Fanaelialae

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