Choose the Illusion: Dungeon Mastering

Dannyalcatraz · Dec 25, 2011

Twice in thirty years of gaming? I'd say that qualifies as not too bloody likely.

Context: I don't play just D&D, and I've moved many times. In those 30 years, I've played in nearly 70 different RPG systems in 11 groups in 5 metropolitan areas in 3 different states.

So to my eyes, while it isn't too common compared to old standbys like Rock to Mud/Mud to Rock (a fave) or Scry-Teleport-Attack (which, for the record, I've never seen), as a thinking outside of the box tactic, that's amazingly high frequency.

And even within D&D, some DMs simply don't use cursed items, meaning its simply not an option since the Helm wouldn't exist in the campaign.

Hmmmm...given 4Ed's take on alignment, is the Helm even a part of the game anymore?

Hussar · Dec 26, 2011

S'mon said:
Those are two completely different questions. What I said is that my daily life, or yours, inherently has setting, plot & character to the same extent as there is inherently setting, plot and character in an RPG session.

What I am saying is that the events of an RPG session are no more inherently 'a story' than are the events of somebody's actual life. An RPG is not inherently a story-creation medium in the sense of creating something that much resembles an actual dramatic (or comedic) story of the sort that you see in eg a film, novel or play.

But of course it can* give rise to such a story, whether by accident (just like real life), or by design. For the latter there are actual story-creation RPGs, such as the Indie Narrativist games.

*Your second question is based on a false reading of what I said.

See, I disagree here. An RPG is inherently a story-creation medium. Every single adventure begins with some sort of set up - the DM then creates some series of events that facillitate play in a particular direction based around a pre-defined theme and then, during play, you develop a plot which (hopefully) climaxes at some form of resolution.

In other words, the princess is kidnapped (set-up), the players interact with the adventure (play) and the princess is rescued or not (resolution).

Real life rarely works this way.

So, can you give me an example of playing an RPG where you do not follow this general track of set-up, play and resolution? Which is what I meant by my second question. It's not a misunderstanding of what you said, it's disagreeing with what you said.

You stated, that your daily life creates a story. Not really. Sure, I could write down the events that occur in your daily life, but, that's not a story. There's no set-up, there's no resolution (well, everyone has the same resolution, but that's a slightly different thing

).

Sure, there might be a million different things going on in your life, but, they are not set up along any given themes or planned (again, ignoring somewhat existential discussions for the moment). Writing down the events of your life, there is no real beginning or ending, other than birth and death which aren't really under your control (typically).

However, the beginning and ending of adventures are typically under the players (partial at least) control and are built with particular events in mind by the DM. A dungeon is a flowchart of a story. Playing through a dungeon crawl develops a narrative that can be traced from a concrete beginning to a concrete (usually) ending.

And most adventures work this way. You start the adventure, you have the adventure, you get the xp for the adventure, you start the next adventure.

So, again, can you give an example of playing an RPG where a story is not generated? Where the person running the game has no interest, and no control over what narrative is generated during play? I certainly can't.

I realize that there is this need for some reason to distinguish "collaborative storytelling" from "RPG's" but, I've never really got it. So, could you elucidate for me? Because I fail to see any meaningful difference between "Game where we play characters that adventure in an imagined space" and "Game where we create a narrative with plot, character and setting."

S'mon · Dec 26, 2011

I get up, I go to work, I deal with challenges, I come home, I go to bed (resolution). Every day is a story! Or not.

There's a reason why "You should go write a book" is a pejorative among RPGers. An adventure like The Keep on the Borderlands in no wise resembles a real story like The House on the Borderland. And adventures which do resemble real stories tend to suffer from linearity and can encourage railroading. I'm running one of these right now (Heathen, Dungeon 155) and I find it takes more work, not less, to take somebody else's idea of a dramatic narrative and render it useable as a game scenario.

Hussar · Dec 26, 2011

S'mon said:
I get up, I go to work, I deal with challenges, I come home, I go to bed (resolution). Every day is a story! Or not.

How are the challenges you face resolved by going to bed?

In what way are the challenges you face designed by a single individual and based around pre-defined themes?

Sure, it's easy to be glib, but, I think that there really is an issue here that keeps getting avoided. So often I see people, including some in this thread, claim that their games don't have any story. Which is utter ballocks on the face of it. It's simply not true.

So, again, how can you have an RPG without a story?

There's a reason why "You should go write a book" is a pejorative among RPGers. An adventure like The Keep on the Borderlands in no wise resembles a real story like The House on the Borderland.

Oh, agreed, there are good adventures and bad adventures. But, claiming that there is no story in Keep on the Borderlands is ignoring the actual text. There are a number of stories in there. And, let's not forget, KotB was deliberately left half finished as a means of "training" new DM's. DM's are SUPPOSED to supply a story to finish that module.

Look at GDQ - very definite thread of a story throughout the entire series of modules. And, generally considered one of the top three modules ever produced.

And adventures which do resemble real stories tend to suffer from linearity and can encourage railroading. I'm running one of these right now (Heathen, Dungeon 155) and I find it takes more work, not less, to take somebody else's idea of a dramatic narrative and render it useable as a game scenario.

See, this is where the problem lies. The thought that story=railroad. Look at KotB again. It's not a railroad. I think we can all agree there. But, there is defintely a framework of a story there. The protagonists will travel from the Keep to the Caves, searching out what they find in the caves, with additional side threads coming from the Evil Priest in the Keep. There are any number of stories that can be generated from KotB.

But, if we were to make a matrix of the stories, it wouldn't be all that difficult. Groups that go into the higher lettered caves first, die. Very short story. So, let's start our matrix with caves A, B and C. Maybe chuck in D as well. By the time they clean out those caves, they're ready for the next four options. So, we don't put Cave L beside Cave A because Cave L is too tough of a challenge for the party. We make the training wheel caves the most easily accessible.

If you have setting, character and the outline of a plot - which is precisely what any module actually is- what more do you need to generate a narrative?

S'mon · Dec 26, 2011

Hussar said:
In what way are the challenges you face designed by a single individual and based around pre-defined themes?
?

Story is about being "designed by a single individiual"? Again, for RPGs that's what I want to avoid - the world needs to be open enough for the PCs to choose their challenges, at least as much as a real person chooses what they're going to do.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'pre-defined themes' but obviously being an academic in London I face different challenges than if I were a militiaman in Mogadishu. Likewise in an RPG there are different challenges in different environments. Very few D&D games have pre-defined themes in the narrativist "What would you do for love?" sense of an actual dramatic premise, though.

S'mon · Dec 26, 2011

Hussar said:
How are the challenges you face resolved by going to bed?
Oh, agreed, there are good adventures and bad adventures. But, claiming that there is no story in Keep on the Borderlands is ignoring the actual text. There are a number of stories in there. And, let's not forget, KotB was deliberately left half finished as a means of "training" new DM's. DM's are SUPPOSED to supply a story to finish that module.

No. It's not some defective, half-finished work that the DM needs to complete before presenting to the players for their admiration. The decisions of the players are supposed to determine what happens.

S'mon · Dec 26, 2011

Hussar said:
So, again, how can you have an RPG without a story?

Since I've told you, and you've rejected my answer and called me glib, I don't see much point endlessly repeating myself.

ExploderWizard · Dec 26, 2011

You can get a story out of any organic rpg session. Just because you can tell a story about what happened in a particular game session doesn't mean the session was played with creating that story as a play objective.

Can you play it that way? Certainly, and many do. It by no means a requirement for playing an rpg though.

Hussar · Dec 26, 2011

But, Exploder Wizard, creation of a story is unavoidable. You can't play an RPG without it. It might not be your intent to create a story, but, without fail, that's what you are doing.

S'mon - Ahh, now I see the problem. You are equating narrative (which is just a fancy word for story) with narrativist (a Forge term with a fairly specific definition distinct from narrative).

Like I've said, you cannot play an RPG without creating a story. It's not possible. Therefore, RPG's are collaborative story telling games.

Oh, and I never said that the Keep was defective btw. I said that it was half finished with the assumption stated clearly in the introduction to the module that the DM would fill in the details.