Dear Mike & Monte

prosfilaes · Dec 28, 2011

[MENTION=3424]FireLance[/MENTION]: I don't see why this needs reopening here. We had a lengthy discussion on healing surges that should have made it clear that for better or worse some people think they're different and don't like them. A lot of your things have had extensive threads that came to the same conclusion; for various reasons, certain people don't like them. Is this really the place to argue for them?

Hassassin said:
I'd like to see a minimal playable set of rules on one page, plus maybe one more page for each class/archetype. Those should be enough for at least ten levels of play. In fact, I'd like to see the basic players' rulebook be just a handout you get with a DM's guide.

Why are you looking at WotC for that? That type of system is pretty easy for any small publisher to write up, and I think WotC is pretty big on the idea of selling a $35 (retail) book to each and every player, or the equivalent in online reference material.

BryonD · Dec 28, 2011

prosfilaes said:
[MENTION=3424]FireLance[/MENTION]: I don't see why this needs reopening here. We had a lengthy discussion on healing surges that should have made it clear that for better or worse some people think they're different and don't like them. A lot of your things have had extensive threads that came to the same conclusion; for various reasons, certain people don't like them. Is this really the place to argue for them?

Exactly. I've been long-winded about surges in the past and don't see my issues being even touched on here. I started to jump in but decided not to clog this thread with the same old stuff. It is out there for anyone who wants to go looking.

Suffice it to say there are very reasonable justifications for strongly disliking surges. That doesn't make loving surges at all wrong. No claim whatsoever of that.

But, if the conversation is "what will make 5E more popular than 4E" and a reply is "I love 4E and I love surges, therefore 5E should have surges", then the merits of that reply to serving the "more popular" goal should be questioned.

Weregrognard · Dec 28, 2011

Mike & Monte,

I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if there were good editions or bad. Why we played, or why we fought (on the net). All that matters is that two (game designers) stood against many (fans). That's what's important! Gaming pleases you, Mike and Monte... so grant me one request. Grant me the best D&D ever! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!

JamesonCourage · Dec 28, 2011

FireLance said:
What you call stances and maneuvers, I would probably just call "powers".

Sounds good to me, then

FireLance said:
So the question ought to boil down to: did you decide to take a short (usually five minute) rest before sneaking around?

Got it. Thanks for the 4e clarification, that helps slightly.

FireLance said:
As for why five minutes, I don't think there's any particular scientific reason.

I'd like there to be. Or, I'd like some ideas on why it is. Or some guidelines.

FireLance said:
4e encounter powers are actually closer to the former than the latter. That they are closer to the latter than the former is a misconception (which sometimes, in my more cynical moments, I think is deliberately spread by those who want to make 4e look less realistic than it actually is).

Fluff-wise, for sure. Mechanically, I'm not sure how it's actually closer.

FireLance said:
Such an approach would mean that healing abilities must be entirely daily, unless you are fine with the idea that characters can just keep regaining hit points (because they can keep resting five minutes and regaining their encounter healing powers). And frankly, seven daily uses of a M:1 healing ability works pretty much like seven healing surges, IMO.

But the feel is so much different. Some people prefer healing surges, some prefer healing spells. I'm the latter. On the infinite healing note, though, in my game you can overchanneling healing (use it at-will, basically), although it converts the damage to nonlethal and fatigues you. I'm not against a conversion or some such other safeguard to prevent infinite healing, though at high levels I haven't seen infinite healing as much of a problem. Definitely changes the feel of the game, though (like when my players are able to provide themselves with all the wealth they'll ever need).

FireLance said:
It seems to me that the issue is more with non-magical healing than with healing surges per se.

Non-magical instant healing, really. Or, non-magical instant healing of actual physical wounds (the "other" HP pool I mentioned could be an HP pool of fate, luck, stamina, morale, etc., and could potentially be restored non-magically depending on table interpretation of that pool).

FireLance said:
Eh, the way I see it, if someone comes up with a good idea that the DM thinks would resolve the situation, he should be free to declare "problem solved", and move on.

And if the players find a solution that resolves the issue in a simpler, quicker way, well, they deserve to be rewarded!

Yep, agree with these. The skill challenge system might be interesting to me, but not as implemented (I'm currently working on my own take, but it's not an easy task. It definitely might have roots in 4e, but is certainly not the same as it is now. Goes to show that I'm at least open to the idea, if I felt it was mechanically sound).

FireLance said:
Good to know!

Thanks for the very productive and civil reply. I feel good adding to this thread. As always, play what you like

Elf Witch · Dec 28, 2011

Here is my wish list.

Less classes, while I think options are great, do we really need a lot of classes to do this. For example instead of having wizards, sorcerers, warlocks, witches as separate classes have one mage class that can be customized to allow players to make the type of magic user they want.

Don't punish magic users because magic does things better than the class abilities ie rituals to do knock that cost the mage a lot of gold and giving up power. There are times those type of spells are needed to keep the game moving forward.

I would like to see less dependency on magic items have rules for items to improve as a character levels so that masterwork sword later becomes a +1.

I like skills but I don't like that it is so easy to max out a skill that there becomes no chance for failure. Another thing instead of having class skills and cross class allow all skills to be open to every class so that players can customize their characters to do what they see them doing.

I hate multiclassing because so often it is used to make these monster characters that dominate the game. Find a way to allow people to multiclass but make it harder to end up with these type characters.

I am not fond of the way clerics are done in 3E I don't play 4E so I don't know how they do them. The main thing I dislike is that all clerics have the same flavor . Domain spells don't really make them that different. I would like to see armor, weapons choice and even spells tailored to the god you worship. It makes sense for a cleric of a martial god to be running around in plate but not so much a cleric of a nature god. I miss the sphere system for spells.

Frostmarrow · Dec 28, 2011

On art: Wouldn't it be great if the player books had sketchy art such as you would find in Drake's or Jones' journals, or indeed the 3E PHB, and the DM books had fully developed four color art? Set up like this the player books hint at what is to come and the DM gets the full show.

TheAuldGrump · Dec 28, 2011

Elf Witch said:
Here is my wish list.

Less classes, while I think options are great, do we really need a lot of classes to do this. For example instead of having wizards, sorcerers, warlocks, witches as separate classes have one mage class that can be customized to allow players to make the type of magic user they want.

Don't punish magic users because magic does things better than the class abilities ie rituals to do knock that cost the mage a lot of gold and giving up power. There are times those type of spells are needed to keep the game moving forward.

I would like to see less dependency on magic items have rules for items to improve as a character levels so that masterwork sword later becomes a +1.

I like skills but I don't like that it is so easy to max out a skill that there becomes no chance for failure. Another thing instead of having class skills and cross class allow all skills to be open to every class so that players can customize their characters to do what they see them doing.

I hate multiclassing because so often it is used to make these monster characters that dominate the game. Find a way to allow people to multiclass but make it harder to end up with these type characters.

I am not fond of the way clerics are done in 3E I don't play 4E so I don't know how they do them. The main thing I dislike is that all clerics have the same flavor . Domain spells don't really make them that different. I would like to see armor, weapons choice and even spells tailored to the god you worship. It makes sense for a cleric of a martial god to be running around in plate but not so much a cleric of a nature god. I miss the sphere system for spells.

Rituals were one of those things that I liked the sound of, but hated the implementation of. :erm:

Multiclassing can go either way - I have seen characters that were hobbled by the player not thinking through what the character would look like at the end. (Sorcerer/wizards, to get those extra low level spells, as an example.)

Pathfinder, on the other hand, does not punish multiclassing, but does reward seeing a class through to the end.

I would like to see a way to scale adventures - Spycraft and Fantasy Craft, as an example, do a very good job of this. I was able to do up the bulk of my Fallout sandbox campaign for Spycraft without worrying when the PCs might arrive at a given area.

The Auld Grump

catsclaw227 · Dec 28, 2011

BryonD said:
Exactly. I've been long-winded about surges in the past and don't see my issues being even touched on here. I started to jump in but decided not to clog this thread with the same old stuff. It is out there for anyone who wants to go looking.

Suffice it to say there are very reasonable justifications for strongly disliking surges. That doesn't make loving surges at all wrong. No claim whatsoever of that.

I agree that there are those that don't like the healing surge mechanic. It pops them out of the immersion. I can see that.

And using them during short rests to heal to full was something that people strongly disliked. But 10-tapping the party with a waistband full of CLW wands did the same thing for me.

How can we find a middle ground for healing that doesn't alienate one group or another?

I like the idea of a healing surge mechanic, but it wasn't framed very well. Still, though, I preferred it to 3e healing.

LurkAway · Dec 28, 2011

On playstyle:

1) Decide already if D&D best supports:
a) low/traditional fantasy
b) high/anime fantasy
c) both

2) Decide already if D&D best supports:
a) 1st person perspective roleplaying via peripheral rules
b) top down or 3/4 perspective roleplaying via rules overlay
c) both

3) write rules that fully support choices for #1 and #2

4) write comprehensive player and DM guidelines to help with #3

5) playtest with veterans and newbies to see if #3 and #4 achieves #1 and #2 in actual gameplay (ie., not just in theory but in practice)

6) When marketing the new edition, make it clear what playstyle(s) the game is supporting, how and why, so that anyone who feels left out can "move on" already to a different system (or previous edition) and those who feel included can rejoice.

OnlineDM · Dec 28, 2011

LurkAway said:
2) Decide already if D&D best supports:
a) 1st person perspective roleplaying via peripheral rules
b) top down or 3/4 perspective roleplaying via rules overlay
c) both

Could you explain these terms? I don't think I've heard them before, and I'm not quite sure what you're getting at... but it sounds interesting!