Dear Mike & Monte - Page 16


What's on your mind?

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAuldGrump View Post
    But for gods' sakes, put more than two levels in the B book! I really expected the new Red Box to do well, but having two levels and such limited options killed it before it could walk.
    YES. The 4e Red Box was really cool, except for the fact that it did nothing to prepare someone to actually play D&D. At the end, you don't even know how to make a character! D&D shouldn't try to teach the game to new players by using a choose your own adventure format; it should try to teach new players how to play D&D, including such extremely basic elements as how to make a character.

    Again: There's no point in releasing a "Basic Set" that doesn't teach the basics.
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  • #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Jester View Post
    it should try to teach new players how to play D&D, including such extremely basic elements as how to make a character.
    Well, in some of the schemes that seem to be under discussion, character creation may not be so basic. That's something to be careful of, I think - really effective basic sets are difficult when character creation is complex.

    That brings me around to a basic conflict I see running through many discussions - reconciling how some people want pretty complicated characters and character creation, with those who want simple systems. Satisfying both these groups is a terribly challenging design goal.

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    Something else that I'd be quite happy to see in 5e

    Death of feats. They have become a fiddly little nibbling away at providing corner-case customisation, and if there is a system which gives enough customisations to all classes as it is (as 4e does), then why bother with them?

    I know some people love feats, but as this is *my* wishlist, I'd like to see them gone.

    For the same reason I'd like to see the whole range of fiddly conditions lasting for fiddly different periods of time just disappear. None of this "immobilised save ends, blind to the start of your next round, stunned to the end of its next round, unless its bloodied when it is stunned to the beginning of its next round" where are we now kind of combat please!

    In other words, I'd like simple character creation, and combat which is tactically rich but without accounting (or multiple casino chips under each mini!)

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  • #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbran View Post
    Well, in some of the schemes that seem to be under discussion, character creation may not be so basic. That's something to be careful of, I think - really effective basic sets are difficult when character creation is complex.

    That brings me around to a basic conflict I see running through many discussions - reconciling how some people want pretty complicated characters and character creation, with those who want simple systems. Satisfying both these groups is a terribly challenging design goal.

    I think the best way to do character creation is through levelling up. A the start (the basic set) you could have very basic designed characters. Keeping the characters very simple for the first 5 levels (the 1st teir) would do 2 things. It would give players who want their 0 to hero gritty teir and allow new players to get to grips with the basic foundation of D&D.

    Levels after that (teir 2+) would get more detailed and complicated. Or if the player perfers choose the options that keep their character more simple but at a power level equal with everyone else (as in essentials).

    Tier 1 (Levels 1 to 5) Basic/Starter Set
    Introduction - Tutorial - Quick Play - Quick Character Generation - Casual (AKA Heroquest) - Campaign Introduction (NPCs, Places) - Simple Dungeon Bashes - Zero To Hero - Essentials

    *If you don't like the simplicity/low power of Tier 1 and are familiar with the rules frogleap to Tier 2 - or rush through it with superquick XP rewards.

    Tier 2 (Levels 6 - 10)
    Added Character Powers etc with more complicated conditions/effects and rules nuances.

    Tier 3 (Levels 11 - 15)
    Name level, large scale battles, fortifications, guild leader, followers, etc

    Tier 4 (Levels 16 - 20)
    Who knows etc, etc.

  • #155
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    Ignore His Dudeness
    Bring back the danger.

    The thing of going into a dungeon is the real possibility that you may not come out alive.

    Also kill the 5 room dungeon dead, it's boring.

  • #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plane Sailing View Post
    Something else that I'd be quite happy to see in 5e

    Death of feats. They have become a fiddly little nibbling away at providing corner-case customisation, and if there is a system which gives enough customisations to all classes as it is (as 4e does), then why bother with them?

    I know some people love feats, but as this is *my* wishlist, I'd like to see them gone.
    I'd rather that "feats" be radically restricted and morphed into non-adventuring abilities that a character might possess but many would not. This would include crafting abilities, language abilities, etc. If you take the "Blacksmith" feat, then you get to use some ability score and/or more general skill to do Blacksmith work. If in doing all that, they want to rename the thing into something better than "feats", fine.

    In 3E, "Track" was the good feat, and about the only one they killed. Go figure. "Swim" could let your Athletics ability pertain to swimming. And so on. They didn't like this design because people had to pay a feat to do what many characters should be able to do. But players didn't like that, because there were so many critical things they needed the feats for. Move all that critical stuff into class abilities or some other construct, and keep feats for the less critical things. Then players will be happy to pick the things that matter to them. And if in a given campaign the players want more or less of them, go ahead--it isn't a big balance issue now.

    Maybe armor and weapon proficiencies could stay in feats, but I can't think of anything else that affects combat that should be that binary.

    So in one sense I agree that "feats" would be removed, but I think there is still a useful design space for, "A character either has this thing or he doesn't. Many don't have it."

    In the simple version of the game, every adventurer would be assumed to have a certain preset number of these--the ability to swim, speak an extra language or three, maybe the ability to track. For a more complex character/campaign, you can keep the default list, swap one or two, or go full custom. It's up to you. In this way, "feats" become as much about campaign customization as character tweaking. Want to play a game where everyone plays an instrument in a traveling minstril show? Every character takes "Play Instrument", and the bard PC becomes band leader.

    The feat list wouldn't be very long, and would hardly expand at all after the core rules were established. But I see this as a feature, not a bug. Every feat added lowers the value of the previous set, if only slightly. So get a good set and leave it alone.
    Last edited by Crazy Jerome; Friday, 30th December, 2011 at 03:33 AM.

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    Might have been mentioned, I've not read all 10+ pages, but I'll toss it out there anyway.

    Format the rules to be available in more than just paper and .pdf. Consider .mobi, .epub, and other formats which would allow users with tablets and readers to more conveniently utilize the ruleset.
    http://dungeoncurmudgeon.wordpress.com/

  • #158
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    I think that the most important thing to remember is that it needs to be made the way *I* want it and not the way SOMEONE ELSE OVER THERE wants it because they smell and their mother wears army boots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Might have been mentioned, I've not read all 10+ pages, but I'll toss it out there anyway.

    Format the rules to be available in more than just paper and .pdf. Consider .mobi, .epub, and other formats which would allow users with tablets and readers to more conveniently utilize the ruleset.
    Well WotC won't even do PDF of the current edition so even PDF would be a bonus!
    Last edited by mach1.9pants; Friday, 30th December, 2011 at 06:30 AM.
    Gloria Finis

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    I think that the most important thing to remember is that it needs to be made the way *I* want it and not the way SOMEONE ELSE OVER THERE wants it because they smell and their mother wears army boots.
    They did make an edition specifically for you that matched your desires in very conceivable way, but you were too contrary to even buy it, so it sold zero copies and was discontinued.

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