Dear Mike & Monte

Greg K · Jan 8, 2012

Upper_Krust said:
Hey connorsrpg!

People who want to 'dive right in' to the desert will probably die of thirst
People who want to 'dive right in' to the arctic will probably die of hypothermia
People who want to 'dive right in' to spelunking will probably get lost, get trapped and then then die.
(hell stuff snipped)

The point is, you need knowledge, training/experience and the proper equipment before even thinking of venturing into hostile environments. Hell should be more (physically AND mentally) hostile than anywhere on Earth.

really? Low level campaigns should not be able to be set in such regions? Humans cultures exist in those regions in our world. There is no reason not to support campaigns that take place in those regions or visit such regions at levels 1-10 (in the latter case, maybe, some of the PCs hail from such regions and there is a need to go there or there is some other reason to adventure there).
Having to pick up a supplement with rules supporting levels 11+ which I would probably never use (not a fan of any edition above 10-12- especially, 4e with paragon paths and epic destinies being required) just to get environmental rules would ensure I never pick up such a game.
The same goes for a boxed set to get the other planes like the Feywild.

Upper_Krust · Jan 8, 2012

Hey El Mahdi!

El Mahdi said:
Editions came and went before 4E without having defined tiers.

Technically OD&D had tiers of play.

Technically 2E acknowledged high level play options.

Technically 3E had two tiers (Standard and Epic)

Tiers are certainly not a necessity.

They are a gaming (and marketing) aid, nothing more, nothing less.

I think "should be markedly different" isn't accurate.

Could be different? Yes
May be different? Yes

Should be different? Those who don't like the concept or application of tiers would likely disagree.

I don't understand why anyone would 'dislike' the concept of tiers. I can understand people not liking to play certain tiers, but not liking the concept is bewildering. Its akin to not liking Level 13 because its unlucky.

To those who don't like tiers, there existence is a negative. To those who do like tiers, it's a positive. This concept is just like any other, and will have positives and negatives in herent to it (based on player preferences). People's preferences are subjective. But the game by necessity, must attract people to play it (and the more, the better). So, those subjective preferences must be considered when designing a game.

Help me understand why someone wouldn't like different tiers? As I have said I can understand why someone wouldn't like to play certain tiers but then surely the solution is not to play them rather than disliking the concept of them.

I think the game is better served with the concept of tiers (and other concepts), and the associated realms of activities within each, applied as a seperate campaign model (one of many), or as an example to GM's of how they can run a long term campaign or campaigns at varying levels...rather than as a default assumption of which the game's mechanics are built around and specifically support.

Agreed. I just disagree that Level 30 powers should be mechanically required in order to adventure in certain settings, such as among the planes.

So what you are saying is that the most hostile environments imaginable MUST be shoehorned in to 1st Level play...is that accurate?

I even think that designing Campaign products in this manner is a mistake. It unnecessarily limits the audience that the product may appeal to right from the start.

Again there is a flipside to this. If you make all the tiers the same then the higher tiers are simply the same thing with more math. Its self-defeating. Either make each tier offer something different or don't make them at all.

There are plenty of people that love the concept of adventuring among the planes but don't necessaily like high level play. I feel that making planar adventures a defacto high level setting is a mistake.

As I have said before I would be happy with some overlap. Plus someone else mentioned that technically the Feywild and Shadowfell are echoes of the material plane and not as overtly hostile as say the Elemental Chaos or the Far Realm.

But the flipside to your argument is this: are you saying that the higher tiers cannot have unique places (such as the planes)?

Getting late here, will reply to other comments in the morning - goodnight all. Interesting discussion.

Incenjucar · Jan 8, 2012

Plenty of people have a psychological aversion or preference to one thing or another, whether or not they would enjoy the thing in and of itself if that reaction did not exist.

I personally find tiers useful because they create a slightly-less-artificial point between "acts" of a campaign, when hidden threats are revealed or known-but-distant threats start to react to the characters, which require characters to seriously step up and develop.

Hitting level 11 is a good point for characters to seek special training, join an organization they've finally proven worthy of, or unlock a secret in themselves. Hitting level 21 is when they realize their destiny, and the TRUE immensity of the threat that can only be stopped by those who have gone through so many ordeals. You don't have to use it that way, and you can do that without ever leaving Heroic, but it gives you a nice tidy growth curve to work with.

--

You can get to any plane at any level, you're just more restricted when you're lower-level.

El Mahdi · Jan 8, 2012

Aldarc said:
I don't think Upper Krust is limiting the planes to upper level characters. I think the general idea, if I am understanding his intent correctly, is simply to divide the environments evenly and that planes are just more convenient to put in the "epic level box." But I would imagine, just like with all the other content distributed amongst the three boxes, that you could honestly use the content and flavor itself for any level.

I may be reading Upper Krust wrong, I have been known on occasion to miss the point.

And with Planescape, I agree that the content could be used for any level.

With 4E, however...

4E PHB, pg. 28-29 - The Three Tiers / 4E DMG, pg. 146-147 - Tiers of Play

PHB: The thirty levels of your career are divided into three

tiers: the heroic tier (1st level through 10th level), the
paragon tier (11th level through 20th level), and the
epic tier (21st level through 30th level)...

DMG: As your campaign progresses, your story and the
style of encounters need to take into account the different
tiers of play.

A default style and play experience hard coded into the rules. If you're a player of one of the other multitude of game and campaign style preferences, you'll just have to live with being a square peg in a round hole. Or just play using our style. It's more fun anyways.

What do you mean you'll just play another game? Good luck with that. We don't make the old game anymore. And we even pulled all the old editions pdf's. So you can't get those either.

Hey! Wait! Where are you going?!? Didn't you hear that part about your not having a choice?

Wait... What the hell is that Pathfinder thing...

Heroic Tier

PHB: In the heroic tier, your character is already a hero, set
apart from the common people by your natural talents,
learned skills, and some hint of a greater destiny that
lies before you...

So much for using a zero to hero style play...

PHB: You move around on foot or on a relatively
mundane mount such as a horse...

So, my 5th level Paladin from a previous edition with an animated stone horse must have been an anomaly...

PHB: The fate of a village might hang on
the success or failure of your adventures...

DMG: The fate of a village might hang on the success or
failure of heroic tier adventurers...

So much for hometown boy saves the world... So much for the everyman hero who's in the right place at the right time...

PHB: If you face a dragon, it is a young one
still searching for a lair, one that has not yet found
its place in the world.
One, in other words, that is much like you.

"Not to worry guys. If we meet a dragon, it will be level appropriate. Don't worry about determining if we should fight or run away, any Dragon we meet, we can handle."

Of course though, as GM this obviously doesn't mean you can't introduce a high level dragon. But according to the rules, you shouldn't... (there's that should assumption again...)

Paragon Tier

PHB: In the paragon tier, your character is a shining
example of heroism, set well apart from the masses...

DMG: By 11th level, characters are shining examples of courage
and determination—true paragons in the world, set

well apart from the masses.

So much for the down-on-their-luck, poor, washed-up, morally bankrupt, burned-out veteran that becomes the world's last hope...

DMG: They...are able to use magic rings

Sorry Frodo... :erm:

PHB: When you reach 11th level, you choose
a path of specialization, a course that defines who you
are within a certain narrow range of criteria...

Why do I have to choose a destiny again...?

Oh, I see. I can't simply be a fighter that just increases their knowledge and formidibility. I have to choose a destiny that determines how I... (continued further down)

PHB: ...the fate of a nation or even the world might hang in

the balance...

DMG: The fate of a nation or even the world might depend

on momentous quests that such characters undertake.

What...? My father and grandfather did that when they were still wet behind the ears, but I have to wait until I'm a Paragon...

PHB: When you face a dragon, it is a

powerful adult who has established a lair and found its
place in the world. Again, much like you.

"Whoa there Rogue! It may look like a juvenile Dragon, but trust me, it isn't. How do I know you ask? Well, we are Paragon aren't we? Duh!"

Epic Tier

PHB: In the epic tier, your character’s capabilities are
truly superheroic.

"What?!? I'm a Superhero??? Hmmm. I don't feel like a Superhero. I'm still living in this crappy room at the Rotgut Pub. Oh well. I guess it's become a Superhero or just call it quits. There's no room for more mundane high-level heroes in this world..."

PHB: ...your most dramatic powers come
from your choice of epic destiny

"But I don't want that Power. And I definitely don't want some predetermined path!"

"Sorry Luke. It's your Destiny..."

PHB: You navigate otherworldly realms...

DMG: ...Epic characters traverse otherworldly realms...

"So, my Dad was just pulling my leg when he talked about traveling to Sigil as a young man just off the farm."

"I obviously don't want to go to the planes. Everything is Epic level there. Apparently all soldiers in Sigil are born level 21 or higher..." :erm:

PHB: The dragons you encounter are ancient wyrms of

truly earthshaking power...

"Sorry, Ma'am. I can't save your daughter from that Dragon. It isn't Epic enough..."

Immortality

Wait...??? What?!? Immortality...??? What if my campaign and play style doesn't lead to immortality? Maybe I'll just ignore this part...

A character’s epic destiny guides how he or she ultimately
exits the world. That hero’s story has to come
to an end, though his or her actions leave existence
indelibly changed. Each epic destiny presented in the

Player’s Handbook

suggests a way for a character with
that destiny to achieve immortality. It’s up to you, in
cooperation with your players, to determine how their

characters get there.

After the final encounter of that last adventure,
the characters attain their destined immortality
—the “happily ever after” to their careers...

Epic-level characters don’t have to leave play. If you
want to, you can prolong your campaign indefinitely
with 30th-level adventurers, concocting new challenges
to their godlike capabilities...

Oh! Okay... Now I get it that whole Epic Destiny thing.

So basically, I have to choose a destiny I don't want, and limit my character concept as I level up in ways I don't want to, all for a campaign and play style that I don't like and probably won't use. But since it's hardwired into the rules I can't just ignore it... *sigh*

So, where does all of this lead? How is it apropos of this thread?

Well let me tell you...

Dear Mike & Monte.

Please do not design a game that hardwires into it any specific play style or default campaign assumption. Please keep in mind that this game needs to appeal to a broad base. Go for a more basic chasis that includes a base with nods to all play styles. Then provide instruction and advice on how to gear the game towards specific play styles and varying complexity levels...without shading said advice with judgements about what's fun or unfun.

Please, make Inclusiveness your watchword.

Thank You.

Sincerely,
Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong

El Mahdi · Jan 8, 2012

Upper_Krust said:
Technically OD&D had tiers of play.

Technically 2E acknowledged high level play options.

Technically 3E had two tiers (Standard and Epic)

Agreed. However, none of those systems/editions had the concept as hardwired into the rules as 4E, or as impossible to ignore or skip as in 4E.

Hardwiring it into the rules made it restrictive to those who don't enjoy those concepts, rather than inclusive to gamers of all preferences.

Don't misread me though, either in this post or the previous post. I don't hate 4E. I don't prefer it, but I do feel that there are parts of it that are sheer genius (which I have shamelessly stolen as houserules for use in my own games).

But I think that I (and many others) have some valid criticisms of the 4E system. And since we are (likely) moving forward towards another new edition, now is the time for such feedback.

Aldarc · Jan 8, 2012

El Mahdi said:
I may be reading Upper Krust wrong, I have been known on occasion to miss the point.

And with Planescape, I agree that the content could be used for any level.

With 4E, however...

...your game preferences weren't met. Simple as that. But I'm not sure what that has to do with my post. Maybe it's a new idea that's not related, but it's hard to respond to the tone of your post following this point without further potentially sending this thread into edition wars. What you are saying does not read so much an appeal for Mearls and Monte for 5E but a pointed slam on 4E. It has the wrong spin. (Also, I think you are reading far too much into the tier labels and nitpicking what are meant only as general guidelines to give a general idea of the power levels and not absolutes. Your character in 1E-3E, for example, never started out as a zero, but as someone who was already a heroic cut above others.)

El Mahdi · Jan 8, 2012

Aldarc said:
...your game preferences weren't met. Simple as that. But I'm not sure what that has to do with my post. Maybe it's a new idea that's not related, but it's hard to respond to the tone of your post following this point without further potentially sending this thread into edition wars. What you are saying does not read so much an appeal for Mearls and Monte for 5E but a pointed slam on 4E. It has the wrong spin. (Also, I think you are reading far too much into the tier labels and nitpicking what are meant only as general guidelines to give a general idea of the power levels and not absolutes. Your character in 1E-3E, for example, never started out as a zero, but as someone who was already a heroic cut above others.)

I had responded directly to one of Upper Krusts posts that came after yours, but before I had actually seen your post. I wasn't so much trying to address you specifically, and contemplated removing your name from the quote so that it wouldn't flag you, but in the end I felt that might be seen as unfair or underhanded. I'm definitely not trying to call you out at all. Sorry if it seemed that way.

The rest wasn't really for your but was for the general thread along the lines of a response to Upper Krust again. It it came across as 4E bashing, I apologize. I certainly didn't intend it that way. 4E isn't my preferred system, but I think parts of it are absolute genius (parts of which I've shamelessly stolen as houserules). I actually use my 4E core books, but just as references for the parts I use as houserules.

Sorry for any confusion or percieved warring.

Incenjucar · Jan 8, 2012

El Mahdi said:
And with Planescape, I agree that the content could be used for any level.

With 4E, however...

Sigil exists in 4E, and all the major planes have hub cities where heroic adventures can occur. It's only harder in 4E because there is less content, which takes time to create.

A default style and play experience hard coded into the rules. If you're a player of one of the other multitude of game and campaign style preferences, you'll just have to live with being a square peg in a round hole. Or just play using our style. It's more fun anyways.

You can't play godzilla in a mech suit in OE, clearly D&D was a failure from the start.

What do you mean you'll just play another game? Good luck with that. We don't make the old game anymore. And we even pulled all the old editions pdf's. So you can't get those either.

Hey! Wait! Where are you going?!? Didn't you hear that part about your not having a choice?

They pulled 4E PDFs. So.

So much for using a zero to hero style play...

They have pre-1st level rules now.

So, my 5th level Paladin from a previous edition with an animated stone horse must have been an anomaly...

Obsidian Steed is a level 5 magic item.

So much for hometown boy saves the world... So much for the everyman hero who's in the right place at the right time...

See above.

Last I checked I could throw Demogorgon riding the Terrasque and using Tiamat as a familiar at a level 0 party.

The rules explicitly state that you do not have to choose a paragon path or an epic destiny.

What?!? I'm a Superhero??? Hmmm. I don't feel like a Superhero. I'm still living in this crappy room at the Rotgut Pub. Oh well. I guess it's become a Superhero or just call it quits. There's no room for more mundane high-level heroes in this world..."

Mundane high-level hero? How does that even work?

Wiseblood · Jan 8, 2012

I have to admit I'm with El Mahdi on this one. I feel the campaign should dictate the tiers of play not game mechanics.

Connorsrpg · Jan 8, 2012

I don't care either way re tiers. I actually don't mind them (but I wish there was a 'you are normal' tier b4 Heroic

).

I am even happy for Player Options to be released as a progression for these tiers (but this doesn't help future planning for those that do it).

What I don't want to see is Level/Tier/Box Set dictating when specific terrain, adventure types, locales and even planes come into play. In my mind all setting stuff should be left separate for the GM and options given to them from the get go to develop their own too.

Maybe Player and GM material need different approaches, though I am happy with the release of several PHBs and DMGs (just like MM's). Much better than the 'Complete' series for 3E, where 'there was something for everyone' in each book, but really there was bugger all for wizards in one and fighters in another for eg. I stated then it would be better to just release additional PHB's. Not sure what the prob with this has been....other than, yes, there needs to be 'something' simpler for new players. A box set done well maybe...or a better explained PHB, perhaps with the Core Rules in separate book? Core rules and Player's Options book that interacts with the Core rules. I am not sure on newbies products. I have introduced dozens of players (many young) over the years by just playing?

I just don't want to see those of us well versed in the hobby all have to start out with a 'Basic Red Box' again. FWIW I hated the original - blasphemy I know - (but I was already playing AD&D when i got it).

Dear Mike & Monte

Greg K

Legend

Upper_Krust

Hero

Incenjucar

Legend

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch

Aldarc

Legend

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch

Incenjucar

Legend

Wiseblood

Adventurer

Connorsrpg

Adventurer

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