Dear Mike & Monte

amerigoV · Dec 27, 2011

My wish....retire D&D for an edition "cycle" or two. Just reading this thread its clear people all want something different, anywhere from dials to talk to real people to make the game realistic ("historically speaking, just how effective was a glaive against a Tarrasque?"). So put the IP on ice for awhile, release some other fantasy game, then bring D&D back later when there is actual demand for a new D&D. Right now, its completing against itself in too many incarnations.

Releasing something new allows people to judge it on its own merits. Let the D&D baggage fall way for a number of years. Then people will see it fresh again.

Tallifer · Dec 27, 2011

Reading through this thread, I see many interesting ideas which I would like incorporated into Fourth Edition. (I also see many ideas which are already part of other editions and roleplaying games, which puzzles me. I for one do not the Wizards to emulate for example Pendragon, because I can already play Pendragon without D&D.)

I would prefer there to be no Fifth Edition. Since Fourth Edition can be entirely contained within the on-line Character Builder, Monster Builder and Compendium, I think that all that is needed is more errata and revisions. To mark Dungeons and Dragons' fortieth anniversary, the Wizards of the Coast should republish the first two Players' Handbooks with all the errata incorporated.

Keep everything. Just gradually fix a few minor problems.

1. The designers should go through every existent feat and strengthen the feats which are useless, superfluous or inferior. Feats and utility powers should be added for neglected races (goblinoids, sharden, changelings, kalashtar, et cetera).

2. Then they should also study every existent power and strengthen the powers which are useless, superfluous or inferior.

3. Furthermore they should examine every existent class and strengthen the class features which make that class inferior (binders, seekers, strength clerics and paladins, witches). And rename battleminds. And create the Friar Tuck sub-class for Avengers.

4. Moreover every existent magical item which is useless, superfluous or inferior should be improved.

5. Release the Third Dungeon Master's Guide for the epic tier. Publish more and better adventur paths to take adventurers to the thirtieth level.

Zaukrie · Dec 27, 2011

1. Fix your marketing. It was and remains pretty bad ( I have a marketing MBA, btw). This is critical to the success of a new edition.

2. I think you need a default setting. There needs to be a way for new people to enter the game, and w/o this, not sure how they really do it.

3. I think you need more adventures, and better adventures. Same reason as above, plus adventures are what really give us a share experience. Btw, not all of us can make it to a gaming store, so only having the common experiences that way does not help.

4. Something magical is missing in 4E. Maybe I'm just too old, but something is missing. While I love all the powers and options, some of the magic is missing someplace. Also,magic is missing from the magic.

5. I personally like the classes to be different from each other. There are some good suggestions in this thread, some of which make that easier, some of which make it harder.

6. I think you need an entry level version of the game. I have no idea how a new player would start right now.

7. Think about what accessories you want to sell...minis? maps? adventures? world books? cards? Plan for that, but don't make them required, make it easier or whatever to have them.

8. Magic, as above, need an overhaul in 5E. There is little magical about magic right now, imo.

Zaukrie · Dec 27, 2011

Forgot one.....

Spend some money on the art. Stop reusing art. Make it memorable, ingrain it in our brains. Make it active. Make it evocative. Give us more pictures of the locales we are reading about, so that they can be used.

Monte...think Ptolus......so dang evocative.

Morrus · Dec 28, 2011

Zaukrie said:
Forgot one.....

Spend some money on the art. Stop reusing art. Make it memorable, ingrain it in our brains. Make it active. Make it evocative. Give us more pictures of the locales we are reading about, so that they can be used.

Monte...think Ptolus......so dang evocative.

I have to agree that there isn't one single piece of iconic 4E art ingrained on my brain. Not one.

1E was best for that. 2E has some I remember well. To this day, despite having run the entire WotBS adventure path in 4E from start to finish over nearly 3 years, not one piece of WotC's art sticks in my brain.

I'm not an artist; I can't tell you why (I think instructions to artists containing 15 things to include including 4 races, 17 'action words', and 3 things new to this edition; add spikes) but I know it when I see it, and the 1E period friggin' NAILED iconic images.

Rechan · Dec 28, 2011

Morrus said:
I have to agree that there isn't one single piece of iconic 4E art ingrained on my brain. Not one.

1E was best for that. 2E has some I remember well. To this day, despite having run the entire WotBS adventure path in 4E from start to finish over nearly 3 years, not one piece of WotC's art sticks in my brain.

In all due respect I think that's because you were an impressionable kid.

I can recall the pictures of the first D&D book I ever saw. And those were cartoony 2e monster pics, not exactly works of art. But I remember them becuase I was a kid marveling at them.

Morrus · Dec 28, 2011

Rechan said:
In all due respect I think that's because you were an impressionable kid.

I can recall the pictures of the first D&D book I ever saw. And those were cartoony 2e monster pics, not exactly works of art. But I remember them becuase I was a kid marveling at them.

Look at the cover of the 1E DMG. Cartoony does not come into it. That's friggin' iconic!

Which brings me to request #11 (and I can't believe it wasn't in my list - it's the BIGGEST one):-

11) Make it a book you can read. Not a reference book or dictionary; not a magazine (which I clearly remember Scott Rouse enthusiastically explaining to me at Gen Con just before they launched it - "we're going with a magazine reference style! It's all dynamic! Bullet points! Lots of white space!"; I tried not to let my face fall too much. I used to reread the 1E (and, indeed, the 2E) books again and again. They had paragraphs of text and everything! I have never read the 4E books; I've merely used them for reference. They're books of lists.

I think the biggest lesson to learn here is the difference between a book and a powerpoint presentation. A book should not be a powerpoint presentation. Too "modern". Face it, RPGs aren't a modern phenomena - re-engage with a cool retro vibe rather than try to fit it into a shoe that is the wrong size.

I recognise that one of the goals was clarity. I submit that one of the primary enjoyments of the game was discussion over interpretation of rules. This was as much fun as playing the game itself, and taking it away is a bad move. I'm not saying that one should obfuscate things, but one should feel free to wax lyrical and let the players enjoy discussing what you wrote. Hell, you can make a career out of explaining what you wrote! (OK, that's silly, and clearly over-the-top, but sometimes a choice between clarity and poetry is not as clear cut as an IKEA instruction manual; sometimes it's about the pleasure of reading the damn thing).

C'mon - what's better for an author than readers discussing what you wrote?

Rechan · Dec 28, 2011

Morrus said:
Look at the cover of the 1E DMG. Cartoony does not come into it. That's friggin' iconic!

You seemed to have missed what I said.

I can recall the pictures of the first D&D book I ever saw. That was one of the Creature Compendiums. Full of cartoony monster art. Every time we went to the mall, I'd sit in Walden's books and flip through one of the Creature Compendiums, looking at the pictures, because I didn't understand the game/have a group.

Hell, by the end of 2e I only owned the AD&D 2e MM and AD&D 2e PHB, quite a number of Dragon magazines, and the spell compendiums I got for the Christmas before 3e came out. That's it.

Doug McCrae · Dec 28, 2011

1. Don't be afraid to kill more sacred cows.
2. Don't be boring.

Morrus · Dec 28, 2011

Rechan said:
You seemed to have missed what I said.

I can recall the pictures of the first D&D book I ever saw. That was one of the Creature Compendiums. Full of cartoony monster art. Every time we went to the mall, I'd sit in Walden's books and flip through one of the Creature Compendiums, looking at the pictures, because I didn't understand the game/have a group.

Hell, by the end of 2e I only owned the AD&D 2e MM and AD&D 2e PHB, quite a number of Dragon magazines, and the spell compendiums I got for the Christmas before 3e came out. That's it.

Sure I saw what you said. You said I was wrong about my artistic preference because you remember the first D&D book you ever saw. I responded by showing you the sort of image I was talking about.

I'm sure you saw lots of other bad art. I was talking about art like that. It's not that I was an impressionable kid, it's that the art was awesome. I also remember classic 1E Dragonlance art like this: