The Escapist on D&D Past, Present, and Future

Cergorach

The Laughing One
It's about catering to folks with a short attention span, mainstream MMOs en computer games in general tend to cater to folks with a short attention span. They don't need to be to complex, detailed or difficult, I believe the term 'themepark' gets used a lot. These don't have to be bad things, those have a place in entertainment and for RPGs might actually be a good thing. 4E is not complex, not exactly detailed and certainly not difficult, it's 4E's only strengths imho...

See it more like the action movie (all action all the time) vs. the foreign language romantic movie which has far to much conversation in it. The action movie makes a poor romantic movie and vice versa, but they both have their own entertainment value and attract different crowds.

4E is catering to a different crowd then Pathfinder is, is 4E as popular as 3(.5)E was, no. Is it a bad game, no. Is it less profitable then WotC expected, yes. GURPS isn't my kind of game, imho it suffers from the same issues as 4E D&D, unattractive presentation, crunch over fluff. Does that make it a bad game, no, just an unpopular game. But it is still enjoyed by many and has it's own niche in the RPG community.
 

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M.L. Martin

Adventurer
It's things like this that make me feel like the best move would be for WotC to just put everything up on PDF, maintain DDI, and otherwise kill the game and use it for IP fodder.
 

Zaran

Adventurer
Fair enough, I guess. Still, I would think that even in an op-ed piece, they would try to get WotC’s current POV.

Well, if they are doing a Future article perhaps that will be when we get the POV and basically rebuttal from WotC. What else can an article about DnD's future be unless they get it from the donkeyhorse's mouth?
 

MrMyth

First Post
I'm fairly confident that D&D 4E skews younger than any version since 1E was released, that is to say younger than 2E and younger than 3.XE.

Oh, I'm absolutely certain of that, but I think that has almost certainly been true of every edition compared to the one before it. Admittedly, I wasn't around for the transition between the original game and 2nd Edition, so I'm not sure what that transition was like.

I think most people feel it is good to bring new and more people into tabletop roleplaying but I think many of them also wonder if the 4E experience is one of tabletop roleplaying as we all know it.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for many folks to feel that 4E isn't their cup of tea. I find questions of whether it is 'tabletop roleplaying as we know it' to be downright silly, myself. And I think trying to make the claim that the divide is between "true fans of D&D" and "fans of the current edition" is a false comparison to make. There are folks who played the early editions and felt 3rd Edition was a problem, but 4E returned to what they liked. There are folks who felt 3rd Edition and 4E alike are abominations. There are those who refuse to even speak of 2nd Ed. Etc. Yes, the number of different factions and games may have grown - some of that inevitable as more editions come out, some of that due to, yes, various mistakes WotC made in the launch of 4E.

But as often as I've seen claims about who it is supporting each game, I've very rarely seen anything to support those claims. That there is a divide... yeah, that is certainly true. But whenever I've seen people trying to describe what each side of that division consists of... it often feels like folks don't want to accept that there can be people, playing a game they don't like, who are gamers with exactly the same roots as them. And so they need to invent a new, imagined brand of gamer, who must be the ones playing that game, because it is "all about the MMO", or "dumbed down for younger players who never played D&D before" or whatever.

Now, sure, not everyone is saying that. But some of the article's generalizations seem to fall into that category, and there are certainly those in this thread who have tossed about similar concepts. I just don't think the divide is, or even can be, so simply delineated.

Most of the people on each side are likely more similar than they think - they just happened to prefer different games for different reasons, and that's that.
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
...
Except that lower attention span is a nice way of saying stupid and immature. Also accusing someone else of being in denial over personal experiences?
...


For some reason you are taking some comments personally, and look as if you are spoiling for a fight. Don't do it. Don't take it personally (nobody writing anything on the escapist or here knows you).

If you do, you'll find yourself booted from the thread, but I'd rather not do that.

Thanks
 

frankthedm

First Post
"Hasbro restructured itself internally to focus on its most successful brands," said Dancey. "Brands that did $50-$100 million a year in revenue were considered 'core,' and smaller brands were going to be marginalized. Marginalized businesses get downsized in headcount. They may also be mothballed, or sold."

The sad truth was that D&D was in danger. "Wizards has a $100 million brand - Magic: the Gathering. It tried to convince Hasbro that it could have two, by amping up D&D to that level," continued Dancey. "D&D was not a $50 million a year business, nor was it likely to ever become one on its then-current trajectory. So the reaction of the folks working on RPGs at Wizards is totally understandable - they felt their jobs were at risk."
Good to see some of the numbers behind Hasbro's game of Profits & Pinkslips!
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
Bah to the whole edition war thing..

My own group played 4e for a full year and decided we wanted to spend some time playing Pathfinder. We had laughs with 4e and we're having laughs with Pathfinder.

When there's a 5e we'll have fun with it, and when Pathfinder eventually does a full version revision we'll have fun with that.

By the way, there are other games out there doing the same crap and those are fun too.

Can we all find another topic to bitch about please? It's old.
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
Oh, I'm absolutely certain of that, but I think that has almost certainly been true of every edition compared to the one before it. Admittedly, I wasn't around for the transition between the original game and 2nd Edition, so I'm not sure what that transition was like.


I've been around (from the outside looking in, admittedly) for the transition from (O)D&D (original) to BD&D (Basic) and 1E D&D (Advanced) as well as the transition from 1E D&D to 2E D&D. I've been a regular at conventions through those times and it is my feeling that 1E and Basic saw a lot of expansion including many younger players joining in the fun. I wouldn't characterize what I saw with 2E as skewing younger, though without hard numbers or any clues that could have been had if there had been a vobrant Internet, I'd say it is difficult to say. I think 1E probably skewed older than Basic and that Basic kept their crowd while 2E maybe drew some new players but mostly canabalized from 1E, those who felt 2E addressed problems they saw with 1E.


I think it is perfectly reasonable for many folks to feel that 4E isn't their cup of tea. I find questions of whether it is 'tabletop roleplaying as we know it' to be downright silly, myself.


People can make a lot of claims about what each edition did and did not manage to present but as someone who was a wargamer before there even were RPGs (and who still is alongside my RPGing), as someone who plays many wargames and RPGs, year in and year out for forty years, I can certainly understand what people are saying when they express that 4E isn't the same tabletop RPGing experience they had 12, 20, 30, and even 35 years ago. You might think it is silly, because it doesn't fit your own experience, but it is very much at issue for many, many people nonetheless.

The fact of the matter is that 4E is very much a ruleset that focuses far more on tabletop miniatures combat than any other edition ever has, and this is coming from someone who has played them all with multiple groups, in home games and at gamedays and at conventions for the last four decades. I've heard those who wish to defend 4E as a tabletop RPG and I don't doubt that their individual games might be very much about RPGing with limited use of the rules for tabletop miniatures combat. But, it's been very clear through all of the pre-release previews and through the design blogs and from the ruleset itself that 4E was meant to and does have a combat miniatures focus. This doesn't make it a bad game but it does make it very different from the tabletop RPG experience that past editions of D&D engendered. 3.XE moved it in that direction and 4E picked up the ball and ran with it. To deny that opens someone to questions about how much they really wish to have a meaningful discussion about the course of D&D design over its brand lifetime.


The arguments about this being dumbed down or that being about someone's attention span don't fly with me, so leave me out of those debates. I'm a fan of all sorts of games for their own merits, those that require quick decisions and near-realtime reactions even with complex rules and those that have simple rules where players can sit and debate for hours over minute decisions if that is the group's personal prerogative. Some games are designed well to do one or the other and other games fail to do either well. As far as I am concerned, all versions of D&D have been well designed in their time, cutting edge, and the hyperbole over the quality of the players in one camp or another is all hogwash. There's a spectrum in all camps of gamers, from casual players to those who are expert. D&D rulesets (all editions) have always managed to be welcoming to all skill levels of players, IMO, and those distinctions are beyond the purview of what I personally would like my corner of this discussion to include.


Most of the people on each side are likely more similar than they think - they just happened to prefer different games for different reasons, and that's that.


And in that we seem to agree, as you can clearly see from what I have posted.
 


It's about catering to folks with a short attention span, mainstream MMOs en computer games in general tend to cater to folks with a short attention span. They don't need to be to complex, detailed or difficult, I believe the term 'themepark' gets used a lot. These don't have to be bad things, those have a place in entertainment and for RPGs might actually be a good thing. 4E is not complex, not exactly detailed and certainly not difficult, it's 4E's only strengths imho...

.
4E is pretty dam complex. Its just that unlike other games the complexity is focused in the right direction because it didnt let you flail around as you struggle to learn the mechanics like older games.
Edit:
Also I find it hilarious that 4th edition gets knocked as being a tactical combat game which if you read previous editions was always what the game was.
 
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