Time Based XP Rewards

Starting a new thread for what is likely to be an upcoming discussion on when time based XP is awarded - mid-adventure or at adventure completion. This way the discussion doesn't get buried in the Roaming Dead thread or in the Character Submission thread.

I believe the relevant post that starts this is here

perrinmiller said:

Officially time based rewards are only given at the end and awarded by the Judge. When long adventures make allowances for leveling up mid-adventure, then time-based awards are calculated for that purpose. When I approved it, there was not going to be mid-adventure leveling up for balance reasons, so the time based calculations are not applicable until the very end.

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Reposted because, until I read the actual post, I got the impression from DC's post that PM had declared no time-based rewards could happen during an adventure.

If I read this correctly, though, he's saying they can be awarded when the adventure assumes leveling. His holding them back in this specific case was because his approval discussion with DC involved an adventure with no anticipated leveling?

If that's the case, I don't have an especially big objection to it, though that becomes something we should start requiring in adventure proposals: is this adventure designed with mid-adventure leveling in mind? Anything that metes out around 3/4 of a level's worth of XP in pre-finale encounters should definitely assume it.

The problem comes with the fact that, other than a first adventure, a GM has no way of guaranteeing the specific XP starting point of players, yes?

The primary purpose of time-based awards is so that characters involved in long (non-combat) roleplaying or games that are simply very slow moving can still see some character advancement. That whole purpose is invalidated if TBX is only awarded at the end of an adventure.

I think the misunderstanding comes in because TBX awards are approved at the end of the adventure and usually detailed by the DM or a judge. It's a player's responsibility to keep track of TBX though in practice this doesn't usually happen for various reasons; sometimes a DM doesn't keep good records of xp awards (should always have a listing of awards & when awarded in the first post of the game thread), sometimes it doesn't matter because TBX won't put you up a level, or numerous other reasons.

It's a DM's responsibility to recognize that characters may level and plan or adjust their adventure accordingly.

From what I've seen, the handling has varied from one GM to the next: in some contexts (such as Roaming Dead), the GM has decided to prevent it being applied in-game in order to maintain balance/CR-appropriateness. At other times, GMs have specified certain points where it'd be most appropriate to level if applicable. So basically, I think it's been handled on a case-to-case basis, and I see no reason not to continue doing things this way. I think that it's nice to allow GMs the final say.

That inconsistency is unfair to players. One GM allows characters to level as soon as encounter & time xp gives them enough xp to do so; another allows leveling but only under certain conditions; and still another doesn't allow it until the end of the adventure.

I personally prefer to play under the first. I am currently playing under the second in one game here but I'm fairly sure I don't like that method; I have a character that will in all likelihood reach 3rd level before ever being allowed to use a number of his 2nd level abilities. If a GM told me I couldn't apply time xp until the end of the adventure I would find another adventure to play in. At the least, time xp should be applied at the completion of every encounter and GMs should have the flexibility to adjust their adventure as needed.

I agree with GE.

Allowing GM's the freedom to adjust their adventure's on the fly simply because of Time Based XP awards leveling up characters at random intervals in the adventure due to universal application of Time Based XP Awards across every single Adventure in the entire project, would throw the entirety of the purpose for adventure approval systems out of the window or at least require a re-evaluation of each and every single adventure by a Judge after every single encounter in that adventure that causes the characters to level up so as to maintain game balance.

At least that is my opinion about the problem of allowing universal application of Time Based XP after every single encounter.

jkason said:

The problem comes with the fact that, other than a first adventure, a GM has no way of guaranteeing the specific XP starting point of players, yes?

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Not true. When you kick it off, you know exactly how much XP a character has in the beginning. It is only math to determine where they will end up at the end, before applying TBX.

GlassEye said:

It's a DM's responsibility to recognize that characters may level and plan or adjust their adventure accordingly.

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Yes, a good DM will take this into account.

But, you just hit upon the crux of ruling. It is the DM's prerogative with Judge approval. And guess what, those leveling up issues are posted in the DM's rules for the adventure ahead of time. You don't like what is published ahead of time, don't play it.

GlassEye said:

That inconsistency is unfair to players. One GM allows characters to level as soon as encounter & time xp gives them enough xp to do so; another allows leveling but only under certain conditions; and still another doesn't allow it until the end of the adventure.

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What is "unfair" by not getting to level-up in the middle of a dungeon? Your level in not a way to keep score, is it? Can you prove to me that you are losing XP by not getting level-up or having to wait until adventure end to receive your TBX?

The encounters are set for a certain APL, if you raise the APL then you have to raise the CR. If you don't raise the APL, then the CR is fine. If you have to play at a certain level, not getting to apply your TBX, are you getting cheated? No, you are not, you get all your XP in the end.

You guys sound like greedy XP hounds and want the DMs to work harder. DMing is a lot of work, you better recognize that before you start telling them they need to do more.

I have a counter point to GE's overall complaint about long adventures. Dagger's at Midnight is a short 4 encounter adventure that is dragged out by lack of decent participation and slow posting rates of the participants. For months the characters have done little to advance the game (some posting once every 2 weeks or longer), yet earn the same XP over time. So while they screw off and essentially earn an extra level by doing nothing, I have to modify my adventure to accommodate it? Nuts to that. You start dictating that sort of thing to me, I will shut the game down first.

Now, Scourge of the Howling Hordes is a great example. Due to a heavy reward for having encounters stacked on each other, the time based awards could have the players advance again after only one encounter since leveling the first time. This is a bit ridiculous to me as this is not a heavy role-playing adventure but a dungeon crawl and we update practically daily under normal circumstances. The characters still haven't rested since leveling up the first time yet. However, I think things will work out. They should realize that they don't have 3rd level gear yet so the longer they stay at 2nd level the better off they are for balance reasons.

DC's adventure is balanced for their characters to complete without leveling up. It was not advertized to allow leveling up nor mid-adventure shopping. Whining about not getting to level up mid-adventure is essentially saying you think your character should gain advantage for the final encounters instead of playing as it was designed. It is a short adventure that is in no danger of dragging out into heavy role-playing without rewards. I stand by my Judgement on this when I approved it.

Another argument against repeated mid-adventure leveling up is Crypt of the Everflame. We are advancing from 1st to 4th level, yet still fighting in first level gear. I find that pretty frustrating myself, and Tyrien has some 2nd level gear. So to keep things balanced to our level, we are fighting higher CR monsters, yet do not have gear appropriate to our 3rd and 4th levels. Our current fight has every monster with an AC higher than our best person. I like having characters advance, sure, but I also like them to have the full perks of being that level.

I think the pace we should be setting for leveling up is about 1 level every 2-3 months and about 3-5 encounters. Leveling up after 1-2 encounters is a bit ridiculous. This is part of the Judge's responsibility when approving the DM's adventure.

Bottom line, Judges jobs are to keep things fair. There is nothing unfair about not getting to level-up mid-adventure or having to wait until the end before getting to apply your TBX/TBG.

perrinmiller said:

What is "unfair" by not getting to level-up in the middle of a dungeon? Your level in not a way to keep score, is it? Can you prove to me that you are losing XP by not getting level-up or having to wait until adventure end to receive your TBX?

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You guys sound like greedy XP hounds and want the DMs to work harder. DMing is a lot of work, you better recognize that before you start telling them they need to do more.

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Quoted together since I think my question here is a combination of both. In "Expansion," I seem to recall the GM having to do a lot of "you would have been level x here," and having to re-calculate tbx several times because of it. In the case of tbx granted at the end of an adventure, do we retcon leveling for tbx purposes? It seemed like that was what was happening there, and from my perspective, it seemed like far more work than doling out the time xp around the time it would level the character, whether or not the GM allows the leveling to take effect (which I think is an entirely separate issue, and not what I thought we were discussing)

I have a counter point to GE's overall complaint about long adventures. Dagger's at Midnight is a short 4 encounter adventure that is dragged out by lack of decent participation and slow posting rates of the participants. For months the characters have done little to advance the game (some posting once every 2 weeks or longer), yet earn the same XP over time. So while they screw off and essentially earn an extra level by doing nothing, I have to modify my adventure to accommodate it? Nuts to that.

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Is everyone posting lazily, or are there perhaps people in that adventure who are stalled waiting for other party members to respond? I know I've been in that situation before (and I'm sure I've caused, for that matter). As I recall it, one of the arguments for tbx was to help someone who might normally be a faster poster when stuck in a game with slow posters. They still generally don't earn xp nearly as quickly as if they moved efficiently through encounters, but it at least helps them feel like they aren't as stuck as it's clear you feel the game is.

DC's adventure is balanced for their characters to complete without leveling up. It was not advertized to allow leveling up nor mid-adventure shopping. Whining about not getting to level up mid-adventure is essentially saying you think your character should gain advantage for the final encounters instead of playing as it was designed. It is a short adventure that is in no danger of dragging out into heavy role-playing without rewards. I stand by my Judgement on this when I approved it.

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I was under the impression that the discussion here was more about when and how tbx can be awarded, and less about mid-adventure leveling. I think the latter has been decided for a while: you GM dictates when you can or can't take any levelling your xp has earned you. And I'm more than fine with that.

I think part of what may have gotten the ball rolling here was the impression that the GM in the game had given out the tbx, and was overruled by the judge because tbx weren't allowed. Personally, when I saw DC's post in the approval thread, I got worried I'd been doing it all wrong in my own game and my players might be penalized for it. That sparked a discusion in an effort to clarify how it all works in the future so there would be less confusion and adjusted awards. From my perspective, having an open debate on the topic would ideally lead to less work in the future, since there would be fewer gray areas.

perrinmiller said:

Not true. When you kick it off, you know exactly how much XP a character has in the beginning. It is only math to determine where they will end up at the end, before applying TBX.


Yes, a good DM will take this into account.

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I have to beg to differ on this point. Although this is true in and of itself, the fact is that by the time this point is reached, the prospective GM has already finalized the specifics of each encounter. So while he knows the beginning XP of each participating player at the start of an adventure, do to the nature of LPF, he doesn't always know at the start (or end) of the adventure-preparation process. This makes it impossible to always be able to accommodate leveling beforehand. Throw in things like DMCs, and the water only gets muddied further.

Also, not to nanny, but while I'm glad we're having an engaged debate about this, let's make sure we avoid any name calling or otherwise escalating actions.