D&D 5E The 5E Magic User

MarkChevallier · Jan 11, 2012

Ok, what should they do with Magic Users, Wizards, Mages, call them what you will in 5E? This is a pretty basic, and very divisive question.

I very much liked how wizards were in editions prior to fourth edition, but 4E fans I imagine will strongly disagree. And between the two of us, there's unlikely to be much common ground.

I will say this, I think the notion of 4E Rituals, taking historically troublesome spells and making them arduous and costly, as well as time consuming, is a good idea. But implemented poorly. And it definitely shouldn't be a dumping ground for all (or most) non-combat magic.

My "vision" of a 5E magic user is someone who has limited power but can bring it to bear with awesome effect. Who makes a big difference when they cast their spells, but can't do that to solve every problem. Who has to make tough decisions about when to use their power. Whose magic is flexible and useful for many different kinds of things, provided they have the right spell prepared. Yes, I prefer Vancian magic.

I think 3E got it wrong in the following ways:

Too many spells in one wizard's hands at higher levels.
Too many spells that did what other classes could do, without any drawbacks or inherent limitations.
Spells which fundamentally changed the game (Teleport) without appropriate costing/casting time/limitations to prevent their "spamming".
Too much buffing (more the cleric's domain, but wizards could be guilty of the multibuff too).

I think these flaws could largely be overcome by limiting a wizard's spells dramatically, but making each spell count for a lot.

This is obviously my own opinion: what does everyone else think?

Halivar · Jan 11, 2012

I think magic could be componetized. Check this out: a simple, either vancian or power-based wizard in a starter box, with hardcover modules for magic:

Vancian Magic
Power Magic
Points-Based Magic (a la 3E psionics)

And everyone just buys the module of their choice. You could even balance them against each other, so that two wizards in the same game use different mechanics.

hanez · Jan 11, 2012

I would argue for two types of spellcasters in the core rules. Something like a traditional 3e wizard, and something simpler like the 3e warlock or a sorceror or a wizard that mostly does ranged attacks like an archer but without a lot of spells.

There needs to be choice, some people like simple mechanics some don't. I am always suprised at the players who were totally content with the 3e fighter that had basically one ability... but they were content with it and why shouldn't it be an option. Just dont take my Vance from me in exchage.

I would also plug the arcana unearthed spellcaster as the ultimate custimizable spellcaster.

Elf Witch · Jan 11, 2012

I hate hate hate with a passion what 4E did to magic. Rituals being so costly to do something mundane like open a door makes no sense to me. Basically it says doing something that does not requires as much force like say a fireball that kill and injure multiple targets is less arduous then oping a door. That just breaks any believability to me and just reminds I am playing a game.

The main reason knock can be bad is not because a wizard or a sorcerer can do it. It would be a waste for a sorcerer to take unless they were in a party with no rogue and a wizard who memorizes a lot of knocks with a rogue in the party is giving up a lot of other better spells to do that. It is bad because magic items are so cheap and easy to come by in 3E so a wand of knock is cheap and then the magic user no longer has the penalty of taking the spell.

I like the idea of rituals for some spells like teleport, polymorph, fly and other spells like those.

I don't think wands should be as cheap as they are it would be better if single action scrolls and potions were more common.

nnms · Jan 11, 2012

My biggest issue with 4E Rituals is that they were tied to an already silly gold piece system. Money in 4E is essentially a form of XP you can spend on powers and abilities in the form of items. So basically Rituals cost you a form of XP.

And given the harsh game mode changes from combat to non-combat, ritual use was often not practical because of time constraints.

TwinBahamut · Jan 11, 2012

I like the idea of magic being something scaleable and flexible. Rather than having huge spell lists, Wizards and other spellcasters should have limited lists of spells that have lots of different options. Something like 3E metamagic, except without the feat dependancy and better scaling of effects unique to each spell. Ideally, this scaling will be extensive enough that you could scale a simple Magic Missile spell all the way from its classic, low-level state to an impressive, high-level state where you get giants swarms of magic missiles that themselves fire magic missiles (like a Touhou Spell Card, if you know that reference).

I also like the idea someone mentioned in the 5E Fighter thread, which suggested that spells have long multi-round casting times, but the act of casting let the Wizard throw around minor effects while the true spell is charging up. A similar, but not quite identical, idea is to let spells take effect over several rounds, during which time the Wizard can access a pool of sub-spells related to the primary spell.

Ahnehnois · Jan 11, 2012

Frankly I think the biggest improvement would be to dissociate the magic from the class.

A fighter gets a base attack bonus (or THAC0 or some modifier of some sort) that makes him better at combat, but being a fighter is not inherently necessary to be able to swing a sword or make any particular combat choice. Being a fighter just makes you good enough to succeed.

If the mage had some kind of "base magic bonus" that determined everything-not just how effective spells are but learning them and how often they can be cast-it would be much easier to build separate magic systems around one class. It would also be easy to exclude non-casters, or to fix caster multiclassing with this approach.

Then it would be easier to say "I'm a words of power wizard with BMB +5" and "You're a vancian wizard with BMB +5" and determine what they can do from there, since clearly one magic system doesn't work for everyone.

Rethinking the magic system is a whole other ballgame.

SkidAce · Jan 11, 2012

Ahnehnois said:
Frankly I think the biggest improvement would be to dissociate the magic from the class.

A fighter gets a base attack bonus (or THAC0 or some modifier of some sort) that makes him better at combat, but being a fighter is not inherently necessary to be able to swing a sword or make any particular combat choice. Being a fighter just makes you good enough to succeed.

If the mage had some kind of "base magic bonus" that determined everything-not just how effective spells are but learning them and how often they can be cast-it would be much easier to build separate magic systems around one class. It would also be easy to exclude non-casters, or to fix caster multiclassing with this approach.

Then it would be easier to say "I'm a words of power wizard with BMB +5" and "You're a vancian wizard with BMB +5" and determine what they can do from there, since clearly one magic system doesn't work for everyone.

Rethinking the magic system is a whole other ballgame.

Not a bad idea....(can't xp you again...must spread around)

OnlineDM · Jan 11, 2012

I like 4e and generally have not liked Vancian magic. That said, when I really think about that dislike, my only real complaint is the Wizard being reduced to throwing darts ineffectually when it's not time for a blow-the-doors-off spell. Vancian magic + Magic Missile at-will would be fine by me. Just make it so the Wizard can always fight using magic rather than physical weapons, even if it's minor magic, and I'd be happy.

UngeheuerLich · Jan 11, 2012

Rituals and spells need to be folded into one another back again.
I once was for siloing utility and attak powers... but for a magic user, it just makes no sense. Why can i cast destructive magic in seconds, but need 10 min to open a door?

Heroic tier rituals - from rob schwalb - shows how it should work:
All spells are rituals, you have the option to make fast cast scrolls with lesser effects.

Transition it to 5e: Wizards can cast as many spells as they like, when they have time and resources. Some spells can be memorized in the morning and cast nearly instantly. Spells like fireball are usually memorized, divinations mostly cast out of the book. Feather fall... usually cast out of the book... true story!