Kill raise dead... dead!

Gort · Jan 14, 2012

I think it's about time the era of quick, painless resurrection spells came to an end. What's the point in killing someone if they can come back? Where's the heroism if death has no permanence?

I'd love to see raise dead become a DM-fiat-only plot-device. Perhaps you can get your dead friend back, but it requires a huge undertaking, like invading hell yourself and getting Death in a headlock.

Of course, you'd have to make it difficult for characters to die - I think having them die at negative half-HP is probably about right, and no instant-death-with-no-hope-of-rescue spells either. Obviously a downed character or party would be easy prey for anyone who seriously meant them harm, but I'd like it understood and codified into the rules that coup-de-grace is a bad move to pull off in the middle of a combat - you still need to deal with his friends first!

Ainamacar · Jan 14, 2012

Gort said:
I think it's about time the era of quick, painless resurrection spells came to an end. What's the point in killing someone if they can come back? Where's the heroism if death has no permanence?

I'd love to see raise dead become a DM-fiat-only plot-device. Perhaps you can get your dead friend back, but it requires a huge undertaking, like invading hell yourself and getting Death in a headlock.

Of course, you'd have to make it difficult for characters to die - I think having them die at negative half-HP is probably about right, and no instant-death-with-no-hope-of-rescue spells either. Obviously a downed character or party would be easy prey for anyone who seriously meant them harm, but I'd like it understood and codified into the rules that coup-de-grace is a bad move to pull off in the middle of a combat - you still need to deal with his friends first!

People (though apparently not you) will be raising dead in their games. You can either give them a rule to tell them how, or make them write it themselves. Which is more pragmatic?

I mean, there's already an incredibly easy method for turning raise dead into a "DM-fiat-only plot device": DM fiat. Writing a balanced spell is, in comparison, difficult. I'd be in favor of optional self-contained modules that turn raise dead into a mini-game, add complications, whatever. The basic spell should be functional and assume as little about the setting as possible.

Furthermore, the ease of death in combat is a distinct preference. People who like really deadly combats will have a spectrum of opinions about raise dead.

HardcoreDandDGirl · Jan 14, 2012

If they keep the tier idea from 4e I would like to see it removed from heroic, and made into a 15th or 16th level thing.
I would not cry if it was removed from a PC resource entirely. My biggest bitch is when 4 or 5 friends sit down, and have had death mean death for 2 or 3 deaths, for one player to turn into a cry baby…”OH this character is the only one I want to play” or even worse “I don’t see the difference between bless, fireball, cure light and resurrection, they are all phb spells”
The first time I was told that a warpriest could once per day at no cost raise dead, I think I threw up a little in my mouth.

Olgar Shiverstone · Jan 14, 2012

Yeah, give people options. You don't have to choose to add the option.

Gort · Jan 14, 2012

HardcoreDandDGirl said:
If they keep the tier idea from 4e I would like to see it removed from heroic, and made into a 15th or 16th level thing.

That just delays the suck, though. I'd far rather death remained the final frontier all the way through the game.

nightwyrm · Jan 14, 2012

Joe the fighter gets killed. The player makes Joe the fighter 2.0. What's the difference?

Dice4Hire · Jan 14, 2012

Well, if it does not exist in your game, then no problem. The beauty of modular design.

I have no problem with raise dead of the like, really. It really is only for the characters in almost every game I have ever run or played in. I do not think I have ever raised an NPC the characters have killed. Some have been raised off-camera as part of their backstory.
DM perogative, should not be hard-coded in the rules.

Crazy Jerome · Jan 14, 2012

The default availability of "raise dead" should be one of the many things that changes when you twirl the old "grit to gonzo" dial. If you then want to tweak that default on "raise dead" specifically after changing that setting, go ahead.

The more interesting question in my mind is what else moves with it?

Lanefan · Jan 14, 2012

In a dangerous campaign it only makes meta-game sense to have a game mechanic that allows a reboot of one's character, at least to some extent. And, put in context, that's all the various revival spells are.

As for checks and balances, 1e had it right with revival carrying:
- a significant g.p. cost
- a small but very real chance of failure (resurrection survival % roll)
- a permanent loss of a Con. point

I see the resurrection survival roll as something that really needs to be brought back in...as a % to allow for more granularity than a simple d20.

Lan-"I'm not dead yet"-efan

Elf Witch · Jan 14, 2012

I think it should be available as a default and let the DM decide how it works in the game.

I know in my one game it is not available the only way to come back is if you find a druid to cast reincarnation.

Now I do think raise dead should come with some kind of penalty I think you should have to make a save to overcome the shock and if you fail it you lose a con.

I think it is easier to put things into the game and let indivual DMs take them out.