Hackmaster Basic vs. Pathfinder Basic

rkwoodard

First Post
Hello,

With the 5th edition announcement, I am re-energized to get back into fantasy gaming. But, I am not willing to wait for a year and a half (or more). So I am looking for something for the short term.

I like simple, quick, inexpensive, with good support.

I think both Hackmaster Basic and Pathfinder Basic would fit the bill. I don't really see me going into the main/advanced game line of either.

So, can any of you give me your thoughts, opinions, general reviews.

Thanks,
 

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Reynard

Legend
They are very different games and I think serve very different needs. The Pathfinder Beginner box is designed for just that, beginners. It harkens back to the 1983 basic D&D set, actually teaching you how to play (even including a solo adventure). That said, it is a pretty complete, moderately stripped down version of Pathfinder and you certainly can't beat the price to contents ratio. And it's probably got a few solid months of play in it, more if streamlined low level play appeals.

Hackmaster Basic is a different animal. It too serves as an introduction to a more robust game -- which isn't out yet -- but is less of a "teaching tool" IMO. It feels a little unfinished, even Beta-like, but it is still fun. My biggest complaint is that they managed to flub an otherwise inspired example of play by failing to include any magic use.

As an aside, easily the coolest aspect of HMb is the initiative system and is well worth stealing.
 

KJSEvans

First Post
I presume that you saw the thread below in which I posted a link to the HackMaster QuickStart Guide. It's goals are somewhat different from the Pathfinder Beginner's Box, but I'd welcome you to compare the two factoring in that one is free. :) You could probably squeeze 3 to 4 sessions out of the QSG, if you wanted to get a taste for HackMaster's flavor and mechanics.

Regarding, specifically, the topic of discussion...

In some ways there are more similarities between HackMaster and Pathfinder than you'd expect, ignoring that Pathfinder uses a more abstract combat system. Players in both games would generally be attacking at the same speed IN-game, for instance, although HackMaster puts a heavy focus on second-by-second combat in which movement is constant (although it is at the same basic speed as movement in Pathfinder's abstract system) and players might take damage even if they successfully deflect an attack with their shields.

To focus on that last concept for a second, this is a huge advantage for HackMaster in my mind. In Pathfinder a character is given an armor class which is improved upon by a combination of Dexterity and quality armor. The better the armor you are wearing, the harder you are to hit. In HackMaster, the better the armor you are wearing, the less damage you'll take if you GET hit, but it's actually easier to be hit.

Why? Because if you were wearing 40 pounds of gear (not even counting your backpack filled with your life's lootings) then it is actually going to be harder for you to dodge an attack. This makes HackMaster more realistic and a bit more dangerous. According to the abstract rules of Pathfinder, it's assumed that any miss was a hit which the armor absorbed. I could go on about why this is an Advantage HackMaster example, but the basic of it is that abstracted mechanics negate the random, wild chance of unexpected, awesome things happening. Such as a blocked hit cutting through the defenses and dealing a game-changing amount of damage.

Please don't think I'm knocking Pathfinder, though, as I own a number of the books and am a subscriber.

Beyond the abstract, the most significant difference is the magic and experience level of the games. While I do appreciate Pathfinder offering different "levels" of XP accumulation, HackMaster harkens back to the old school concept of how the accumulation of wealth and experience should be a real accomplishment. It might take you a month of play to hit level 2, for instance - doing so really feels like an achievement. Similarly, HackMaster has dramatically scaled back the use of magic from the 3.0/3.5/4.0/PF concept. Mages are still awesome (and they use spell points, rather than "cast and forget", allowing them to cast the same spell more than once in a day) but many low level PF spells are high level in HackMaster.

Ultimately, then, it's a matter of taste. I believe that a single gamer can be interested in - and enjoy - both, but for me HackMaster scratches all my itches. If you want a high magic campaign with abstract combat and tons of product support, Pathfinder is a good choice. If you want a grittier campaign with a TON of the elements that have been lost from the early editions of D&D, plus a dynamic combat and skill system, then you will want to play HackMaster.

One other issue that's unrelated to mechanics or flavor - if you're a fan of Pathfinder and attempt to collect the books, then you are going to find yourself spending as much as $60 a month just to keep up. The guys who make HackMaster are extremely deliberate - they maintain total control of their product in order to ensure that the quality is off the charts. Consequently, the release schedule is much slower and much easier on the wallet. Last year we saw the release of a beautiful hard cover book (the Hacklopedia of Beasts, which is pretty widely recognized as being the most incredible monster manual ever) 2 print adventures, a pdf adventure and the beta Player's Handbook.

The total cost of these products, if you didn't wait for a sale, was $165, and with them alone you'd have enough gaming material to play in a weekly campaign indefinitely. I'd have to go back and look but I'm pretty sure that Pathfinder put out at least $500 worth of product last year, and maybe more. I just mention it in case cost is an issue.
 
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Greylond

First Post
Another vote HMb. I don't agree that it isn't a complete game though. It's complete for levels 1 to 5, which by standard play should take you several months to get through, at 1 session per week. At $20 it's a complete game and there are a few free downloads for it at K&Co's website.
 

rkwoodard

First Post
Thank You

I presume that you saw the thread below in which I posted a link to the HackMaster QuickStart Guide. It's goals are somewhat different from the Pathfinder Beginner's Box, but I'd welcome you to compare the two factoring in that one is free. :) You could probably squeeze 3 to 4 sessions out of the QSG, if you wanted to get a taste for HackMaster's flavor and mechanics.

Regarding, specifically, the topic of discussion...

In some ways there are more similarities between HackMaster and Pathfinder than you'd expect, ignoring that Pathfinder uses a more abstract combat system. Players in both games would generally be attacking at the same speed IN-game, for instance, although HackMaster puts a heavy focus on second-by-second combat in which movement is constant (although it is at the same basic speed as movement in Pathfinder's abstract system) and players might take damage even if they successfully deflect an attack with their shields.

To focus on that last concept for a second, this is a huge advantage for HackMaster in my mind. In Pathfinder a character is given an armor class which is improved upon by a combination of Dexterity and quality armor. The better the armor you are wearing, the harder you are to hit. In HackMaster, the better the armor you are wearing, the less damage you'll take if you GET hit, but it's actually easier to be hit.

Why? Because if you were wearing 40 pounds of gear (not even counting your backpack filled with your life's lootings) then it is actually going to be harder for you to dodge an attack. This makes HackMaster more realistic and a bit more dangerous. According to the abstract rules of Pathfinder, it's assumed that any miss was a hit which the armor absorbed. I could go on about why this is an Advantage HackMaster example, but the basic of it is that abstracted mechanics negate the random, wild chance of unexpected, awesome things happening. Such as a blocked hit cutting through the defenses and dealing a game-changing amount of damage.

Please don't think I'm knocking Pathfinder, though, as I own a number of the books and am a subscriber.

Beyond the abstract, the most significant difference is the magic and experience level of the games. While I do appreciate Pathfinder offering different "levels" of XP accumulation, HackMaster harkens back to the old school concept of how the accumulation of wealth and experience should be a real accomplishment. It might take you a month of play to hit level 2, for instance - doing so really feels like an achievement. Similarly, HackMaster has dramatically scaled back the use of magic from the 3.0/3.5/4.0/PF concept. Mages are still awesome (and they use spell points, rather than "cast and forget", allowing them to cast the same spell more than once in a day) but many low level PF spells are high level in HackMaster.

Ultimately, then, it's a matter of taste. I believe that a single gamer can be interested in - and enjoy - both, but for me HackMaster scratches all my itches. If you want a high magic campaign with abstract combat and tons of product support, Pathfinder is a good choice. If you want a grittier campaign with a TON of the elements that have been lost from the early editions of D&D, plus a dynamic combat and skill system, then you will want to play HackMaster.

One other issue that's unrelated to mechanics or flavor - if you're a fan of Pathfinder and attempt to collect the books, then you are going to find yourself spending as much as $60 a month just to keep up. The guys who make HackMaster are extremely deliberate - they maintain total control of their product in order to ensure that the quality is off the charts. Consequently, the release schedule is much slower and much easier on the wallet. Last year we saw the release of a beautiful hard cover book (the Hacklopedia of Beasts, which is pretty widely recognized as being the most incredible monster manual ever) 2 print adventures, a pdf adventure and the beta Player's Handbook.

The total cost of these products, if you didn't wait for a sale, was $165, and with them alone you'd have enough gaming material to play in a weekly campaign indefinitely. I'd have to go back and look but I'm pretty sure that Pathfinder put out at least $500 worth of product last year, and maybe more. I just mention it in case cost is an issue.


Thank You. That is as balanced a comparison as I could hope for. Both look good, both companies are great.

I will look over that Quick Start (which is what made me remember HMB).

I am leaning that way.

Thanks Again,
R
 

KJSEvans

First Post
Thank You. That is as balanced a comparison as I could hope for. Both look good, both companies are great.

I will look over that Quick Start (which is what made me remember HMB).

I am leaning that way.

Thanks Again,
R

You're quite welcome!

Incidentally, I see that you live in Tennessee. I was down your way a couple of years ago; Nashville has a handful of very good gaming shops. Greylond (who posted above in this thread) lives in Memphis and helps organize gaming conventions in his area every year. If you are still feeling that gaming itch the next time GameCon Memphis is on (scheduled for Fall, 2012), you should consider making the trek - Greylond is a world class player and GM and will give you a great taste of what HackMaster has to offer. (Not to mention MidSouthCon, which is in March.)
 

GreyLord

Legend
I'm not going to re-iterate what's already been said, but I can state my own opinions on the RPGs.

I think both are quality products. I bought 3 Basic Hackmaster sets for players around the table, but I also bought 2 Pathfinder beginner sets. For the money of a single book, you CANNOT BEAT the Basic Hackmaster set in my opinion. What you get for what you spend is absolutely terrific when compared between the two.

However, I will choose to play the Pathfinder Beginner rules before the Hackmaster Basic rules. Pathfinder IS MORE expensive overall, even for the beginner box.

Both allow you to go to level 5, and both offer a nice quantity of monsters.

Hackmaster is sort of like a blend between old AD&D/ New 3.X D&D/ and Houserules.

Pathfinder is like 3.X D&D, but refined...IN MY OPINION.

As a system I prefer Pathfinder Beginner box and find the way the rules are presented as easier to get into the game for new players, as well as better described and with a better layout.

In addition it also has free items for you to download off the internet for beginning players.

As I stated both are excellent choices, Hackmaster offers a better overall value, but for me Pathfinder Beginner offered a better overall game.

Another option to look at if you want a simpler, easy game to run, though it's only in PDF format is Castles and Crusades Condensed. It has just as much as the other two but offers a little bit more overall for the game you get (IMO) and is cheaper for the PDF then hardcopies of the other two. (It also appears to be available for purchase from Paizo's site)

My overall preference (if it isn't obvious) is the Pathfinder Beginner from the two you listed. You also get tokens and a playmat, all pretty good quality, as well as DICE, and all you need to play (character sheets as well) the game.

Just giving a little from the other side of someone who prefers the Pathfinder Beginner box over the Hackmaster basic book (though I'm still thinking it's an absolutely great value).

I find Pathfinder more intuitive and easier to flow.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I like simple, quick, inexpensive, with good support.

Check your used book stores, physical and online. Odds are you'll be able to find an OoP game and plenty of supplements & adventures for a reasonable price.

For example, HERO 4Ed* and the Fantasy Hero supplements for that edition of the game are running about $8-14 a book. If you buy the softcover version of Hero 4th, it's about $11. So for something like $50, you'd have access to the entirety of HERO 4ths FRPG output. Add another tenner for Ultimate Martial Artist so you can get the most out of melee for everyone, and you're set.

I'm sure you could do likewise in an old game more suited to your tastes.





* not your kind of game, I know- chosen for purposes of illustration only.
 
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Greylond

First Post
Incidentally, I see that you live in Tennessee. I was down your way a couple of years ago; Nashville has a handful of very good gaming shops. Greylond (who posted above in this thread) lives in Memphis and helps organize gaming conventions in his area every year. If you are still feeling that gaming itch the next time GameCon Memphis is on (scheduled for Fall, 2012), you should consider making the trek - Greylond is a world class player and GM and will give you a great taste of what HackMaster has to offer. (Not to mention MidSouthCon, which is in March.)

Thanks for the compliment Kurt. And yea, Memphis has 3 SciFi/Game Cons per year, ShadowCon(early Jan), MidSouthCon(Late March) and GameCon Memphis(Late Sep). I'm on the Board of Directors for GameCon. We have a new Con in the area that is an Anime Con(Memphis Blues Con) and another kinda new SciFi Con but RPGs aren't that big at either. Plus there's a lot of RPGs that go on all the time around here. I'm in regular Contact with several groups all the time, so no matter what you play or when, if you ever get to the Memphis area and are looking for a game you can always let me know. The best way to contact me is through the K&Co boards or by email greylond (at) gmail.com
 

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