D&D 4E Revised 4E Wizard Class with Freeform Spellcasting System

Tony Vargas

Legend
No, but I remember all sorts of silly things, like there were certain effects which were too cheap, or synergized well with other things. Then there were the limitations. I remember I made a 'wizard' as a super hero one time, and ALL of his power was put into his staff, which since it was, theoretically at least, something he could lose he gained a HUGE cut in the cost of his powers,
Half, anyway, if there were no other limitations, yeah.

Don't get me wrong, there were things that were refined - how limitations and modifiers worked in frameworks, for instance, or how buying 'down' figured stats worked, etc - that closed some loophole.

even though it made virtually no difference in practice. Once or twice there was a "you lost your stuff" scenario. Nobody ever managed to TAKE his staff in play, The Wizard totally kicked ass.
Really? It's not hard, mechanically, to swipe an OAF.

Its certainly possible to develop a system that is workable, IF the GM is empowered to police it. The real problem with 4e is how hard this goes against some of the other precepts of the game. When the players are given most of the power, then they need HARD rules on what they can do with it.
Yep, the GM definitely policed disads & limitations in Champions!/Hero. 4e did seem to be designed to give players a lot of options and even narrative control, while being much easier for the DM to run, and policing an al-la-carte effects-based system like Hero's would not have been easy. OTOH, 4e /did/ lift something like Hero's 'special effect' concept, that let players have a lot of latitude about what their powers "were," without DM policing being needed.

Perhaps I can merge conversations....

One element brought up was Analysis Paralysis and the solution being 'signature moves' aka 'spell repertoire'
Talking Hero, again, some GMs who'd balk at a VPP would be OK if you submitted a list (even a long one) of the powers you'd use in it, and only did one on the fly when they opened the door to doing so (to get the game moving again, for instance).
 

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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
This might have to be tweaked a little to make it balance out, some classes might find this a poor option and others (like Slayers) might think it was so awesome they'd do it every other round!

Oh we can also declare that the "Look for opening" undermines at-will stances.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
This as much as getting the numbers tweaked right is very important... ie We need the Combat False Opening or Taunt, the Bait and Switch where they do not get what they are after for martial types.

Yeah, its highly condensed. I'd note that things like RoS, CaGI, and other 'signature' fighter moves simply cannot be built this way. I think that in play you will find this fighter design will be very close in feel and effect to the Slayer and the Knight. Not in any sense bad, but neither outstanding.

That HAS to be fixed before this model is even considered....

A variant of CaGI has elements I have considered very valuable for Rogue (patterned after a Zorro move actually where a multitude of enemies are proned in their attempts to get the rogue ) or a Warlord (where taunting ie moving many enemies at once to put them in a bad spot).

I do think Bait and Switch or Taunting needs to be a staple of the battle field.

Is it weird that I find Come And Get It --> "Very 4e" and necessary for any true descendant.
 

Hello again! :)

Ok, slightly misread it, but that's still crazy powerful.

Its two encounters from a 19th-level Wizard, it should be powerful. ;)

A 20th level Standard would take 45 or so damage from that and quite possibly dies from the damage dice rolls. A 20th level Solo would take 180 or so. Or the Wizard could throw on Ongoing 5 damage instead. See the math problem?

Yes and no. Solo monsters (AFAIR) had ways and means to deal with that sort of thing.

Check out my version of Orcus, designed to give the demon prince a chance against epic tier PCs who were killing the official version inside 1 round.

https://eternitypublishing.wordpress.com/2011/03/09/article-orcus-revisited/

It really is one of those things where you have to have a point system where picking a condition both costs points and changes the damage done. Encounter Stunned Until EoNT means you do 1d of damage in Paragon against a single target with range melee. A Wizard could use one of their Paragon Encounter options to make it Ranged 10 instead. Or one of their Epic options to make it Area 1.

I'm not saying my Revised 4E Wizard (or Fighter) Class couldn't be improved or tweaked but I think you are not taking two factors into consideration.

1. The Standard 4E Rules were already more abusable than my revision.
2. The Standard 4E Rules were BLOATED beyond belief - hence the reason for my Revision which basically boils every single power in all the sourcebooks down to TWO PAGES. ;)

If you look at how powers actually break out, that's what happens a significant percentage of the time, just without the flexibility.

At the high levels you need to start mixing things up or the game becomes a stale facsimilie of the lower levels with simply higher numbers.
 

BTW don't dare me I am the necromantic 4e master "WHEN?!".

Weirdly enough, the Revised Rogue and Cleric classes were basically finished, However I can't find the appropriate notebook. I'll have another hunt and see what I can see but its not looking good.

...that said I DID find the beginnings of the 4E Immortal Tier system I was working on which would have been awesome, albeit totally hamstrung by what would have been my need to completely design all the monsters* for such a tier as well.

*One of the problems with 4E was the lack of scalability. I was planning to flesh out the monster roster through a bunch of epic and immortal tier adventures with pretty much all new monsters including super-solo's and horde's...damn the Iron Tower of Dispater adventure would have made you wet your panties. C'est la vie. :blush:
 

After MUCH tinkering in various games (some wargames which were pretty widely played) I am of the opinion that this sort of 'build your own power' is not ever going to work. IME you have to have some neutral arbiter to look at it and decide if its borked or not.

...like a DM.

There's just too many ways to create subtly OP stuff this way, and players WILL find it ASAP!

You mean its a system that rewards player ingenuity but doesn't hide its power behind rules bloat that only rules lawyers/min-maxers with all six other sourcebooks get to cherry pick from.

Now, with 4e, as it is, there are some powers which are undoubtedly as good as anything you will make with the Krusty System. HOWEVER, you only get each ONCE. That is a really key part of 4e, you can't take multiples of a single power. With any kind of system which is this flexible though, you effectively can. You can just replicate the same OP combination 6 different ways. It might not be IDENTICAL, but it will be pretty close, and then the game turns into spamming the same broken shtick 1000 times.

There are easy ways around that spamming, the easiest one being monster variety. But also spell resistance, spell reflection, variable resistances (such as those of demons), immunities, spell mimicking, spell absorption, interupts, etc.

But another question would be HOW would a given wizard automatically know whats best to use in every given situation and when they find whats best (against a certain monster) why penalize them from using it more than once?

The other flip side of it is that there's not much to be gained really. In other words, players are going to quickly home in on the combinations of elements that they like, and then stick with them. So they don't really NEED all this flexibility! The fact is, a decent well-thought-out power list already will give you all the variations you are every going to use in actual play.

Which gives the DM a chance to both reward player specialization ("Bert's playing a Fire Wizard") but also occasionally throw the players a curveball (Fire Immune monsters vs. Bert).

What I conclude is that 4e just needs all the cruft knocked out of the power lists. If someone were to go through the wizard and simply delete all the stuff which is just one more pointless variation on the same tired theme, and just generally look at the list HOLISTICALLY then wizards could likely go down from 1000+ powers to 250 without any actual noticeable decrease in their range of options.

The 4E power lists were unmanageable, unintuitive and did nothing for player ingenuity. Personally I just hate rules bloat and I think it really just benefits rules lawyers and gives the DM more headaches.
 

That's a DM not emphasizing to you at character generation that you will significantly pay for that limitation every other game day. Or else not get a -1 for it. That tends to put a halt to that kind of abuse.

Champions mentions that all the time - if a limitation isn't a limitation, you don't get points for it.

Sure but that feels potentially heavy handed, in several ways.

I like the Fate method as it doesn't require the Game Master decide ahead of time the likelihood of the disadvantage entering play nor require it be a given frequency,ie it happens when it happens in keeping with story. And you pick the limits based on story instead of the potential value you might gain too.

Yeah, I gotta say, I'm NOT a fan of the stick! Anyway, even if the GM THINKS he's going to punish you 'every other game day' the player (and trust me I know every trick in the book :devil:) doesn't have to take that lying down. Now it becomes a 'playing the GM' situation, and it just goes down hill from there really.
[MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION] has it right, the proper solution is the carrot. If I say to you "hey, this disadvantage will do fun stuff for you!" then that's cool! I mean The Wizard might well have 'lost his staff' a few times if it meant he got some great break in his favor.

I've been thinking about this in terms of my own game. I have a concept called 'Limitations', which are literally 'anti-boons'. They exist, in a mechanical sense, but there's really never been any conceptual structure to drive how they might be used in the game. That is, you could always 'accept a setback' and gain 'Inspiration' as a payback for it, but I never really thought much about the Limitations being viewed as a character RESOURCE. Maybe I shouldn't even call them a separate thing from boons, because maybe with the right reward structure they actually ARE boons! ;)
 

Oh we can also declare that the "Look for opening" undermines at-will stances.

OK, but this is getting dangerously close to the stick approach again. It may be closing A particular loophole (if one exists, I'm not sure) but it probably doesn't come close to closing them ALL. This is of course a danger with a system like 4e when you introduce an entirely new element. Slayers, for example, kind of 'break' the MBA, making it too good. It isn't enough to really 'break 4e' but it definitely creates some weird and not really thematically justified synergies like between Slayers and Warlords.
 

MwaO

Adventurer
Its two encounters from a 19th-level Wizard, it should be powerful. ;)

Check out my version of Orcus, designed to give the demon prince a chance against epic tier PCs who were killing the official version inside 1 round.

You realize a single Epic Wizard can one round your Orcus by your rules, right? With the use of 2 encounter powers…

Doesn't even require any optimization other than initiative and be good at hitting.
 
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...like a DM.
Except the 4e DM is NOT supposed to be arbiter of PC powers. That was a class 1 design goal of 4e...

You mean its a system that rewards player ingenuity but doesn't hide its power behind rules bloat that only rules lawyers/min-maxers with all six other sourcebooks get to cherry pick from.
Sure, that's a way of looking at it, but IME there were still people who were a LOT better at doing it than others, even if it was a fairly simple system. Fleet Command was a few pages of rules, yet I had players in the campaign games who ran rampant by exploiting fairly subtle aspects of the rules. This is OK in a wargame, particularly one where the subject matter is essentially fantasy, but it isn't quite as good in an RPG.

I'd also dispute that 4e's power system is THAT exploitable. Now, maybe a 'point system' can be made to be no worse than that, but then how flexible is it?

There are easy ways around that spamming, the easiest one being monster variety. But also spell resistance, spell reflection, variable resistances (such as those of demons), immunities, spell mimicking, spell absorption, interupts, etc.
I think the objection there is that it runs the real danger of being 'puzzle monster of the day', and you have the question of how to make sure that most of the PCs can contribute meaningfully to most of the monsters every time. What we see is that simplicity on the power side starts to turn into complexity on the monster side, and on the encounter DESIGN side (which is where we don't want it).

But another question would be HOW would a given wizard automatically know whats best to use in every given situation and when they find whats best (against a certain monster) why penalize them from using it more than once?
Its OK to say "you're clever, here's your reward", but it can start to go down hill if the reward is too big. It just gets more complicated.

Which gives the DM a chance to both reward player specialization ("Bert's playing a Fire Wizard") but also occasionally throw the players a curveball (Fire Immune monsters vs. Bert).
I'm thinking more like 'area attacks plus enlarged areas plus metamagic to miss your ally' or something like that. I mean, this is all kind of speculation in the sense I can only think about what you can do in stock 4e with a different power system put in place. I think players will generally stick to what they know, and then its just not that big a deal to have a whole design space you don't really use.

The 4E power lists were unmanageable, unintuitive and did nothing for player ingenuity. Personally I just hate rules bloat and I think it really just benefits rules lawyers and gives the DM more headaches.

Meh, I don't know. I ran 4e for more than 10 years and I didn't really have a lot of 'headaches' with powers. I largely left it to the players to fool with those and let me know what they came up with when they unleashed one. I agree that the 4e power list grew organically, that it wasn't entirely consistent, that a lot of powers were kind of crap, or became useless over time, or were really only useful to very niche builds, etc.

Still, if you were to cut back each class to say 100 powers, you can build good lists.

Anyway, this starts to go beyond the realm of this thread, but when I designed my own '4e-like game' I fixed these issues quite simply.

1. The game has 20 levels, that means 10 less levels worth of powers to have to fill, meaning instantly 1/3 less powers!
2. Certain core powers are placed in power source lists. This is tricky, but it is possible to put a pretty good set of powers here. It removes a little diversity, but also makes it easier for players to handle since now their cleric and paladin can use the same basic healing power, for example.
3. Other powers are moved into smaller lists that are attached to 'boons', which in this case work like mini-themes almost. Again, commonality of powers.
4. Just plain getting rid of unneeded stuff and building lists over from scratch.

Honestly, it works pretty well. I think I'm up to about 12 classes now, and most of them actually have maybe 20 powers each. I think I can build a game with something like 600 powers and cover virtually the entire breadth of what 4e has in effect. Mainly, because I've made power sharing/reuse a possibility, now its easy to design for and aim at.

I mean, I agree with you that 4e is flawed in having non-shareable lists of powers attached only (essentially) to classes. I'm just not personally sure that you can go to the opposite extreme and still have something like the same game.
 

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