Seminar Transcript - Reimagining Skills and Ability Scores - Page 14


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaodi View Post
    I despise the idea of " charisma " now somehow equalling " courage " . This is in direct contravention of so many real world examples where charismatic leaders turn out to be complete cowards.
    I think Charisma should mostly deal with guile and social situations. A Charisma "save" would be your ability to smooth out any botched social situations ("What my friend Lurg the Malodorous *meant* to say was ... ) or come up with a convincing lie on the spot. I'd also be okay if it was a generic "luck" stat.

    IMO, the "courage" stat should be Constitution, which I believe should be reinterpreted to any quality that gives a character staying power and endurance. This can come from physical vitality, zeal, drive, or whatever.

 

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
    Not really. You have six ability scores which cover everything, plus you know your character knows a lot about Orcish history and has a knack for swimming. Easy as pie.
    It's only easy as pie as long as it's only a handful of things your character is good at.
    However, from a DM's point of view it's nice since the burden of remembering a thousand fiddly bonuses is on the player.

    Having a potentially infinite list of 'skills' was one of my major dislikes in 'The Burning Wheel'.
    In a sense, the D&D game has no rules, only rule suggestions. - Tom Moldvay

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    Ultimately, I believe the "rolled stats" issue is a red herring: They've already mentioned they will have non-rolled modules for point buy and this issue has been a solved problem since 3.x that I don't see them regressing on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stonegod View Post
    Ultimately, I believe the "rolled stats" issue is a red herring: They've already mentioned they will have non-rolled modules for point buy and this issue has been a solved problem since 3.x that I don't see them regressing on.
    I pressed reply and then saw that you posted exactly what I was going to. Way too much hand-wringing and cries of dismay for a game in alpha.

    I also have to admit I feel myself get a little dumber every time I read a phrase like "deal-breaker" or "die in a fire". I like to think that roleplayers have better vocabulary than the comment section of the average blog. Disappointing.

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    What a pickle, this one. Whatever they do in the end, they are going to call the Thousandfold Nerdrage unto their heads. Myself, I want to say a million things, but simply don't know where to start...
    Quote Originally Posted by RangerWickett View Post
    This led us to creating in our game "thunderdeath furywheat" because in 4th edition, normal wheat just isn't awesome enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacky the Blackball View Post
    my worry is that if they're reducing bonuses across the board (which the hints seem to show) then d20 + mod may end up with a random factor that's far too great compared to the ability factor.
    That's what I was worrying, but after thinking about it some more: It wouldn't be so bad if most of the time ability checks weren't rolled but the outcome would be decided by the DM with a mere glance at the ability scores.

    An example how this could work: Finding a hidden treasure could have an Intelligence DC of 15. The Wizard with Int 17 wouldn't have to roll to find it. The cleric with Int 13 could be allowed to roll for finding it (rolling a d20 and adding his Int modifier of +1 against a DC of 15). Anyone below Int 10 would not be allowed to roll but could find the treasure regardless by clever roleplaying.

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    I'm all for a always-on "take 10/passive" sort of mechanic with occasional option to roll. Certainly would speed up PbP (which is why I've adopted it here).
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    Quote Originally Posted by trancejeremy View Post
    The trouble is, when you deal with things like halfings and half-giants, you are trying to apply logic to things that just don't make sense.

    3 1/2' tall, 70 lb creatures would never, ever survive a fight with anything bigger. They just don't have the mass to inflict much damage or take any of it.

    Similarly, giants (even half-giants) would simply fall over thanks to their great weight. I mean, 7' is about as humans can get without having really bad health problems (unless they are fairly svelte, Shaquille O'Neal for instance is only 300 pounds and has avoid the health problems that plagued people like Andre the Giant)

    So my point is, if you handwave away the laws of nature and allow such creatures to be adventurers, you can't then be too picky when there are results that don't make much sense.
    Exactly! It is a fantasy game, quit getting your logic mixed with my peanut butter

    Honestly, if you can't imagine yourself being a strong halfling, then you shouldn't play a strong halfling!

    The problem with ability penalties is they are PROscriptive. They tell me what I cannot do with this game. Oh, maybe they're a bit lower key about it than "halflings can only be level 4 fighters and never wizards" but as soon as you tell someone they're not supposed to do something that's just a buzzkill.

    Ability bonuses OTOH are PREscriptive. They tell me "hey, its extra cool to be an elf wizard" and I liked the way in 4e you got to be able to have an otherwise unachievable ability score if you had the +2 bonus. I want to be able to play my halfling wizard and be able to be good at it. On top of that I'm rewarded by being a dexterous halfling wizard. I can thus get a reward for paying attention to the halfling archetype but still be a unique halfling. After all, I'm an adventurer, not a gardener.

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    I really dislike the idea of yet another implementation of a skills system, as of course it helps break the crunch from previous versions. But I guess there is enough issues with the current systems... too simplistic (4E, or at least for me), and too open-ended (3E). One which really just is a frustrating mess, the other is way too open-ended with DCs that don't have the same progression across all skills (i.e. Minor, Easy, Moderate, Hard, Very Hard, Heroic, etc).

    I suppose the idea of flipping around and apply skills to abilities when you try and do something can get away from both of those. As long the skills can be fairly fine-grained i.e. instead of "nature" skill, you break it down into different skills such as knowledge, survival, etc. but not to the level of 3E where you had to take both spot and listen, or hide and move silently.

    But really if they are going to re-implement the skills system, I'd much rather see it, combat, and magic all rolled into one instead of three different checks. So if I'm trying to attack with my sword, I roll an attack skill that maybe I get a bonus because I have proficiency sword. If I want to cast, I roll the casting or magic skill, etc. Or I suppose in the parlance of the article, I'd roll an ability that is modified by the appropriate skills.

    Charisma as a basis for fear saves, really? What dictionary are they using for the definition of words, not the one I am using. Just because the designers try and make every ability useful, doesn't mean it should randomly apply to things just to make use of it.

    That all being said, it seems the more I read the less I'm interested. Not making any true judgement until I've seen something actually in writing to putz around with, but I question the wisdom of all these optional "modules". As a "brand", there has to be a core "D&D" experience; what is that? It seems to be getting lost in all the talk about needing to support every Tom, Dick and Harry's vision of the game.

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    I am getting the impression that people are taking the transcript and extrapolating some specific rules and assuming that these rules will be RAW when they haven't even presented any specifics. Most of what I read were the ideas and thoughts about the the direction of the game, and yes, they have some bare bones rules they are working with, but can we pause and remember that they are likely a full year away from specifics?

    The rules are still going to go through the feedback cycle of the open playtest. It is entirely possible that things like roll for Abilities as default might change to being the option instead. It is also possible that they still might have some skills or more likely a skills module for those that want them.

    I can't understand why some are flat out saying that this is gonna suck and they'll never play it when they haven't even seen the rules that haven't even been finished yet...

    EDIT to my commenters: I understand this is nothing new... but I do think someone should point it out once in a while.
    Last edited by catsclaw227; Tuesday, 31st January, 2012 at 07:01 AM.
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