Seminar Transcript - Reimagining Skills and Ability Scores

thzero · Feb 5, 2012

triqui said:
I disagree. George Washington or Alexander the Great were both charismatic and brave, just to name a few.

Remember also that "charismatic" is not necessarelly the same than "eloquent". Batman speaks very little.

Just because they are some examples of charismatic and brave, doesn't mean there aren't as many examples of charismatic and craven.

triqui said:
Just change "charisma" for "personality". Does it work?

Not really, no. Personality is subjective. Charisma seems to be the "measurement", and I use that loosely, of how effective a character can be, stat-wise, in social situations. Eloquent or lack thereof is more a factor of how the player views the character.

triqui · Feb 5, 2012

Kalontas said:
As far as we know so far, themes have much less impact on the overall gameplay and are far less important overall for the character. Nobody presents his character as "level 10 human noble fighter". Everybody will just go "level 10 human fighter".

Also on a conceptual level, making deva a theme strips good part of its fluff - their unique appearance and certain racial features that just won't work in a theme.

Idisagree. I often present my character as a 10th level pirate. The fact that he can be a 10 level fighter, a 10 level rogue, a 5/5 fighter/rogue, or a urban ranger vairant is not that import to define what the character is. Just what the character do.

triqui · Feb 5, 2012

thzero said:
Just because they are some examples of charismatic and brave, doesn't mean there aren't as many examples of charismatic and craven.

but still refuse the sentence which I was quoting, that says charisma *always* pair with cowardice

Not really, no. Personality is subjective. Charisma seems to be the "measurement", and I use that loosely, of how effective a character can be, stat-wise, in social situations. Eloquent or lack thereof is more a factor of how the player views the character.

that's an oversimplification. Charisma has always been the stat that shows how efective a cleric can turn or destroy undeads, or more recently (post 3e) how effective a Sorcerer Finger of Death or Fireball are. Turning undeads is not a social interaction.

Saying that Carisma is the measurement of how good you are in social interactions is like saying Dexterity is the measure, stat wise, on how good you are dodging. What about archery? Or disabling devices? Or being sneaky?

Just becuse Charisma modifies Bluff it does not mean all Paladins are good liers. A character with ten ranks in diplomacy and Charisma 9 is eloquent, while a character with Cha 18 and no ranks in diplomacy may not be, even if he can try to convince just for strength of character or sheer force of personality.

AbdulAlhazred · Feb 5, 2012

Kaodi said:
I think that we have a real problem if the word " charisma " in D&D does not at some level mean the same thing as " charisma " in real life. And in real life, charisma and cowardice go together all the time.

And, in fact, certain Socratic dialogues do actually present arguments for courage and wisdom being akin to one another. I do not think I have ever seen one that argues charisma and courage having a similar relationship.

The term charisma (pl. charismata, adj. charismatic; from the Greek χάρισμα, meaning "favor given" or "gift of grace") has two senses: 1) compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others, 2) a divinely conferred power or talent.

And from Weber:

Charisma is a certain quality of an individual personality by virtue of which he is set apart from ordinary men and treated as endowed with supernatural, superhuman, or at least specifically exceptional powers or qualities. These are such as are not accessible to the ordinary person, but are regarded as of divine origin or as exemplary, and on the basis of them the individual concerned is treated as a leader.<sup id="cite_ref-20" class="reference">
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charisma#cite_note-20</sup>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charisma#cite_note-0

So, really, I think there's clearly a way that Charisma in D&D relates to the dictionary term, but it still means an almost entirely different thing. In any case, to sum up a personality in 1 number, or even 3 numbers, is pretty much just not going to work. Cha can tell you any of many things you want it to, but it ends up amounting to some sort of measure of a PC's ability to influence people.

Aehrlon · Feb 5, 2012

All 'real world' arguments aside, IMO the Charisma stat in the D&D game is a combination of inner-strength of character/force of will against enemies (not related to Will saves)/& to some extent, magnetism/physical attractiveness... if that makes any sense to you all, my fellow D&D aficionados. The CHA stat in game terms rolls all of this into one encompassing Ability score that rates your overall score among these parts. I think it can be determined by the DM & player just how much of each facet of the CHA score is handled for their specific character.

Erik le Rouge · Feb 6, 2012

I'm so happy about this new edition, I wish they would ditch 4e completely in the fire, but I'm happy with the compromise of having a bit of every edition, at least it's far from it and they kept themes one of the few things I found really interesting in 4e.

I'm happy that racial negative modifiers are coming back (I like systems like GURPS with racial disadvantages).

I like that skills are based on abilities (I was always an AD&D 2e big fan).

I have good hopes I will reknew with D&D soon.

Lwaxy · Feb 6, 2012

Morrus said:
Bruce: An example I saw yesterday was a rogue going into a room and looking for traps. You can describe what you're doing and roleplay what you're doing. If he says I look in the jar and I know there's a gem in the jar, I'm not going to have him roll. However, if something is more hidden, like a secret compartment on the shelf I would look at their intelligence and see if he can just automatically find it or if he's looking in the exact right place. However, if he's doing that check in the middle of some other stressor like fighting, then I'd have him roll.

Rob: Earlier this week I had some players fighting some kobolds in the room. One of the guys wanted to jump over a pit, he had a 15 strength so I let him just do it - it wasn't that big of a jump and it sped up combat. It's very liberating to be able to do that kind of thing and just keep the flow going.

I've been doing it that way forever

It's common sense to me.

thzero · Feb 6, 2012

Aehrlon said:
All 'real world' arguments aside, IMO the Charisma stat in the D&D game is a combination of inner-strength of character/force of will against enemies

Not really, "inner-strength" would be Wisdom, i.e. the d20 definition of

Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings. Wisdom is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and it is also important for paladins and rangers.

Whereas Chrismas has its d20 definition as

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

I always thought it was a bad choice to use Charisma for spellcasting with the sorcerer. Bard, ok, maybe. But not really Sorcerer.

triqui said:
Charisma has always been the stat that shows how efective a cleric can turn or destroy undeads

Yes, sure, in 3e. Not that I recall in 1e or 2e, it was just the cleric (or paladin) level.

Aehrlon · Feb 8, 2012

thzero said:
Not really, "inner-strength" would be Wisdom, i.e. the d20 definition of... Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings. Wisdom is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and it is also important for paladins and rangers.

Well, I see what you are saying but I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I was saying, the Charisma Stat in D&D (to me anyhow) is an Inner Strength of Character. I agree with you that the Wisdom Stat is an inner-strength but of WILL. To me, the two are different. WIS, raw strength of will; lets you destroy/control undead. CHA, strength of Character, having convictions, being a natural leader, someone who "talks the talk AND walks the walk"... of true noble character. That's the difference to me. Heheh, all of this is IMHO so take it with a grain of salt. All that being said, I believe that WIS should be the ability that affects turning undead for Clerics and CHA should be the one for Paladins...

thzero · Feb 8, 2012

Aehrlon said:
Well, I see what you are saying but I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I was saying, the Charisma Stat in D&D (to me anyhow) is an Inner Strength of Character. I agree with you that the Wisdom Stat is an inner-strength but of WILL. To me, the two are different. WIS, raw strength of will; lets you destroy/control undead. CHA, strength of Character, having convictions, being a natural leader, someone who "talks the talk AND walks the walk"... of true noble character. That's the difference to me. Heheh, all of this is IMHO so take it with a grain of salt. All that being said, I believe that WIS should be the ability that affects turning undead for Clerics and CHA should be the one for Paladins...

Nah I understood thats what you were saying. However, I have always thought the designers made a mistake with making the Charisma Stat being the "inner strength" of the character, which it always had seemed to be due to its use in turning undead, bard and sorcerer magic, etc. This flies in the face of the definition they provide for Charisma and the standard English definition. It was like they were trying to find a reason for Charisma not to be a dump stat on just about every class.

I can see WIS being the stat for turning undead on both Clerics and Paladins. The Paladin has other uses for Charisma (not to mention, he needs a lot more skill points so he can get decent diplomacy, etc. skills). I'd use WIS for the Sorcerer's spell stat. CHA maybe for Bard, questionable though depending on how much of the Bard's magic is "performance based".

Seminar Transcript - Reimagining Skills and Ability Scores

thzero

First Post

triqui

Adventurer

triqui

Adventurer

AbdulAlhazred

Legend

Aehrlon

First Post

Erik le Rouge

First Post

Lwaxy

Cute but dangerous

thzero

First Post

Aehrlon

First Post

thzero

First Post

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