Seminar Transcript - Reimagining Skills and Ability Scores

Ahnehnois · Jan 29, 2012

Siberys said:
[MENTION=17106]Ahnehnois[/MENTION]; It's not that I think it's necessary. I just think "out of spells, switch to crossbow" was lame and needs to go the way of the dodo.

A lot of people happen to enjoy that element of the game. If you don't, it seems like it would be easy to give at-will abilities out for free, either as an explicit option or as the first 5e houserule.

Kaodi said:
I despise the idea of " charisma " now somehow equalling " courage " . This is in direct contravention of so many real world examples where charismatic leaders turn out to be complete cowards.

Honestly, I would argue that those leaders aren't really that charismatic (in D&D terms). Charisma has always been associated with courage. Remember when the paladin was mandated to have high charisma? It wasn't because all paladins were attractive wordsmiths. What ability score does represent courage? Wisdom? Wisdom and courage are definitely not the same thing either.

Besides, similar issues exist with other ability scores. Agility, reflexes, and coordination are not the same. It's entirely possible to have great aim but be slow to action. The ability to remember things is not the same thing as critical thinking (what is an autistic savant's int?). Willpower and perception are not the same thing. When you have a system based around six ability scores, you're going to have to have broad definitions of them.

Morrus · Jan 29, 2012

Siberys said:
[MENTION=17106]Ahnehnois[/MENTION]; It's not that I think it's necessary. I just think "out of spells, switch to crossbow" was lame and needs to go the way of the dodo.

Meh. I just reskin the crossbow. It's a zap with exactly the same rules and stats as a crossbow.

Invisible Stalker · Jan 29, 2012

Morrus said:
Meh. I just reskin the crossbow. It's a zap with exactly the same rules and stats as a crossbow.

mundane missile: at will spell that does 1d4 damage and almost never hits

Siberys · Jan 29, 2012

That would be fine by me, but I've dealt with people who won't accept reskinning in their games. I do it all the time, but what of those situations where things must be represented exactly mechanically or the DM won't let it fly?

Like I said, first houserule if I end up running the system, and there isn't an option built in. :|

EDIT: Also, what Invisible Stalker said.

Remathilis · Jan 29, 2012

Morrus said:
Meh. I just reskin the crossbow. It's a zap with exactly the same rules and stats as a crossbow.

Leave it the the Zeitgeist guy to think of reskinning crossbows...

Morrus · Jan 29, 2012

Invisible Stalker said:
mundane missile: at will spell that does 1d4 damage and almost never hits

Just change the Xbow fluff to sound magicy.

I'm a big fan of reskinning fluff without changing mechanics. You can make massive changes that way without affecting anything. Everyone should do it all the time. It should be an essential part of gaming.

Kaodi · Jan 29, 2012

Ahnehnois said:
Honestly, I would argue that those leaders aren't really that charismatic (in D&D terms). Charisma has always been associated with courage. Remember when the paladin was mandated to have high charisma? It wasn't because all paladins were attractive wordsmiths. What ability score does represent courage? Wisdom? Wisdom and courage are definitely not the same thing either.

I think that we have a real problem if the word " charisma " in D&D does not at some level mean the same thing as " charisma " in real life. And in real life, charisma and cowardice go together all the time.

And, in fact, certain Socratic dialogues do actually present arguments for courage and wisdom being akin to one another. I do not think I have ever seen one that argues charisma and courage having a similar relationship.

avin · Jan 29, 2012

Morrus said:
Rob: The electrum piece. I want to bring back the Great Wheel of cosmology. That would be awesome to have back.

Now this is interesting.

While I'm a huge Planescape fan, and would welcome back the Great Wheel, I think cosmology should be also modular, because some people hate the GW.

If the GW is back I would change a few bits:

- Faerie and Shadow as parallel is fine. I like it. But kill Feywild and Shadowfell's names.

- I like the Astral Sea as presented in 4E, but not that other planes are inside of it, instead, there are ways to other planes from there, as a transitive plane.

- Elemental Chaos must die as a plane but should exist as a nexus of elemental planes, as it should be.

That said, hope they show us lots of cosmologies...

...and bring Yugoloths back.

LurkAway · Jan 29, 2012

What we've done now is we have this thing called "advantage" that a DM can hand out if the players set themselves up with a good description.

Do you remember the "player advantage" threads???

Sounds like we may have an official answer: Yes, charismatic players get an "Advantage".

Ahnehnois · Jan 29, 2012

Kaodi said:
I think that we have a real problem if the word " charisma " in D&D does not at some level mean the same thing as " charisma " in real life. And in real life, charisma and cowardice go together all the time.

And, in fact, certain Socratic dialogues do actually present arguments for courage and wisdom being akin to one another. I do not think I have ever seen one that argues charisma and courage having a similar relationship.

Public speaking, persuasion, deception, and romance (i.e. the things that charismatic characters are good at) all require a great deal of courage, perhaps more than facing a fear spell.

I won't deny that very attractive or engaging people can be cowards on the inside, but I'm okay with the charisma save implementation they're proposing.

Besides, as I indicated, the other ability scores have meanings that don't always match up with their common language meanings as well. Do you have similar objections to Wisdom being used for Spot checks? I don't think most people would associate being wise with having keen eyes. Nor would they associate intelligence with the ability to search for traps (frankly, D&D is missing a "perception" ability and wisdom and intelligence are used as fillins; perhaps it's missing courage as well).