Seminar Transcript - Reimagining Skills and Ability Scores

Hawke · Jan 29, 2012

I really hate feats in 4E. Beyond the obvious feat tax choices, the remaining are truly irritating for how little they do affect things. I do like the racial feats that modify powers and do neat things and dislike the ones that are just another way to get +1 on a roll with a specific weapon or whatever.

I'd love to see all feats be more meaningful and as described either be always on (but w/o being a feat tax always on +1 to attacks or damage - too boring and fiddly) but like an at-will power or ability (think Moves in Apocalypse World) might make more sense.

In any event, I'm not necessarily encouraged by the chat when it comes to feats, though I do like the skills ideas. Skills like Lady Blackbird style game play, tag up a bunch of +1s for abilities and go from there.

Dice4Hire · Jan 30, 2012

Morrus said:
I've always been of the opposite school of thought. I've always wanted race to be more important than it is.

Usually, it has a bit of an effect at first (not much) and by 5th level there's no difference to note between a hafling and a half-orc. But I WANT there to be a real noticeable difference between those two choices for the entire character life. A half-orc should be big and strong, and halfling should not (unless you do some weird stuff).

I'd go further. I'd make the usual modifiers +/- 4. You KNOW that's a half-orc. He's big and strong, whatever career he chooses. The halfling is never going to be as strong as a half-orc.

I think I'm in a minority there. Certainly Monte Cook doesn't agree with me.

I certainly agree with this.

I like the idea of classes giving an ability score bonus. Training is important. I also want races to not be pigeonholed like they were too much in 4E, with the double +2 bonuses, but when it comes to races and classes each race should have something they are better at at something a bit worse.

And really, having a half-giant and a halfling the exact same at a muscle based class is ridiculous. Now, having the 4th level halfling just as good a fighter in every single mechanical way as the 1st level half-giant, I can fully support.

Klaus · Jan 30, 2012

avin said:
As a fellow reflavourist (what?) you got me curious, how do you handle bolt charges? Is it for free or the "bolts" you buy are some magical component?

I'm not [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] (nor do I play one on TV), but I did something similar in 3.x, based partly on a dwarf mini from Chainmail (remember those communist dwarves?):

You purchase a "rod" with a charged "crystal". It is quite hefty, so you have to wield it two-handed (crossbow). It also takes some effort to build up the charge (reload action). After 20 shots, your crystal is drained and you have to buy a new one (i.e., you run out of bolts and have to buy another sheaf). Although magical in origin, the shot is quite physical, so it bypasses magic resistance, but is subject to DR.

Y'know, stuff.

Morrus · Jan 30, 2012

Dice4Hire said:
I certainly agree with this.

I like the idea of classes giving an ability score bonus. Training is important. I also want races to not be pigeonholed like they were too much in 4E, with the double +2 bonuses, but when it comes to races and classes each race should have something they are better at at something a bit worse.

And really, having a half-giant and a halfling the exact same at a muscle based class is ridiculous. Now, having the 4th level halfling just as good a fighter in every single mechanical way as the 1st level half-giant, I can fully support.

Exactly. In real life, you can't train a housecat to be as strong as a grizzly bear. They both have traits that the other doesn't. The cat is nimble as hell with lightning reflexes. The bear is enormous and unstoppable.

If they don't want races to matter, make them just unlisted open ended fluff. Describe your race how you want. This +1 crap is just weak half measures. Who gives a crap about +1 after first level?

If race matters it's worth +4. If it doesn't, write it out and leave it to open ended fluff text.

I guess it's clear I'm in the "race should be a major defining characteristic" camp. At LEAST equal to class.

We're talking house cats and grizzly bears here, people! No career is gonna make them similar to each other!

Starglyte · Jan 30, 2012

Amazing, the one seminar I wasn't really interested in turned out to have the info I was hoping to get out of DDXP. I like what I see personally. From my perspective, it looks like it will make my games faster and easier to use.

Not sure about racial penalties, if nothing else we shouldn't be penalized for making a Halfling Barbarian. Now ability boosts from Classes, that is more like it. If you want to make a Dwarf Wizard, here is the stat that goes with the Wizard package.

I like their idea of themes. I was thinking the other day that Barbarian would make a great theme, but because of the Barbarian class, I figured they wouldn't have one. Now, I am not so sure.

UngeheuerLich · Jan 30, 2012

Sammael said:
Aaaaannnnndddd... it's gone. My interest in D&D Next, that is. We have several deal breakers here, but the two critical ones are:

1. Using ability scores for everything instead of skills (this is COMPLETELY the opposite of what I want in ANY role-playing game)

2. NPCs don't follow the same rules as PCs.

I want the characters to grow, expand, become more skilled in certain disciplines. The last thing I want is for the character's ability scores to determine how good he is at doing stuff.

Besides, guys, the myriad tiny bonuses IS NOT COOL. It's one of the most frequently cited things people HATE about 3.x.

*sigh* back to developing Fatebinder, I guess. At least they are doing the opposed rolls and moving to a silver standard, just as I did.

Hmhmmh... they have skills... in a way you can have any skill you like... just write it on your character...

Ability scores as the backbone of skills is like ADnD 2nd edition. If you learnt a skill, it is just a roll against your stat... it actually worked well enough.

Also, when a race can give a +1 to stat xxx, stats will play a different role in attacking and defending. And if your stats maybe actually don´t affect those things (too much) you can actually roll stats, and assign them as you want. Influencing what area of skills you are good at. Pick a theme and done.

NPCs don´t need to follow the same building rules as PCs and maybe should not. But the result needs to be comparable! This is what I don´t like too much with 4e NPC rules. Attack and damage, defense and HP all are not like PC stats.

If the rules are: a npc fighter has xx hp and an attack score of xx. Damage and AC by weapon and pick 2 martial at will feats, it is ok, as long as xx is comparable to how PCs look.

interwyrm · Jan 30, 2012

If ability scores are random AND determine combat efficiency, I'm not going to switch to 5e. It's not fun feeling completely ineffective in the team... I know, I've played a poison focused character in a mod full of undead.

Morrus · Jan 30, 2012

Starglyte said:
Amazing, the one seminar I wasn't really interested in turned out to have the info I was hoping to get out of DDXP. I like what I see personally. From my perspective, it looks like it will make my games faster and easier to use.

Not sure about racial penalties, if nothing else we shouldn't be penalized for making a Halfling Barbarian. Now ability boosts from Classes, that is more like it. If you want to make a Dwarf Wizard, here is the stat that goes with the Wizard package.

I like their idea of themes. I was thinking the other day that Barbarian would make a great theme, but because of the Barbarian class, I figured they wouldn't have one. Now, I am not so sure.

A halfling barbarian should be DEX based. A half orc barbarian should be STR based. Both should be equally viable. The half orc should be obviously stronger and the halfling obviously nimbler.

That's not penalising. Both are equally effective - but in different ways. It's differentiation, not penalization.

Primal · Jan 30, 2012

Dragonblade said:
Going back to feats, perhaps they have different types of feats. Like Major feats that you only get one every two levels and Minor feats that give smaller situational bonuses and such but you get those every level.

It sounds already like there will be class specific feats. Like Arcane feats that give casters at-will attacks and such, so maybe having different types of feats that are acquired in different ways is a model they are looking at.

Well, Pathfinder does have Traits which are "half feats" (+1 trait bonus to something, usually) related to your background, race and class. I wouldn't mind racial themes and feats, because I feel race should play a bigger part in the game than it does now; maybe racial feats and racial powers could even be part of the standard level progression (every 5th lvl you'd get a racial feat, for example?).

I dread that there will be "feat tax" for picking up at-will powers; if that is true, I wouldn't mind getting a feat every level.

Tortoise · Jan 30, 2012

Sammael said:
Not me. I positively hate reskinning. It's lazy design.

I disagree. It is effective and efficient DMing. What's more important to you, spending more time preparing or more time playing?

If a quick reskinning can get you the effect you want in an instant, why waste time building something?

It is a tool, a means to an end, not laziness.

However, to each his or her own.