Intelligent Items

Maidhc O Casain · Feb 3, 2012

This may end up being a very short discussion (one way or the other), but just in case it ends up being more complicated or controversial than I think it will I thought I'd be preemptive and give it its own thread.

My plan for Kalinn from the beginning has included having her sword Hafísbíta grow with her, gradually increasing in power and eventually revealing the presence of intelligence. I remember having a discussion of intelligent items in LPF, and even remember the approximate timing (it was while Kalinn and Aldern Foxglove's Raynucio Vega were clearing out mites from Palazzo Dannato). But now I can't find that discussion.

Here are my thoughts:

'Philosophically,' I think that intelligent items should be rare and wonderful. However, I see no way to make this the case while still being fair and allowing everyone who wants one to have one. I'm in favor of allowing them (and yes, I'm aware that I'm very much biased as I want one for Kalinn

), as I don't think everyone will want one because it won't fit everyone's character concept. I'd like one for Kalinn, but have no desire to put one in Pari's hands - it's just never been a part of his character concept.

Mechanically, the rules as present in Core seem pretty straightforward. I'm not a "balance" guy - I'm not good at character optimization or at evaluating for brokenness, because I always miss potential interactions. But they seem pretty well balanced from my impaired perspective.

My plan - if we allow intelligent items at all - is to post for the improvements in the Pearl just as though she were buying them. I'll check for availability first, and if my desired improvement is "available" it'll happen immediately. If I miss the roll, she'll "commission" the improvement but rather than enchanting the item the mage-smith would perform a ritual to awaken another ability.

Obviously, my vote on including intelligent items will almost surely be yes, but I'll hold off on making it official until there's been the opportunity for some discussion.

GlassEye · Feb 3, 2012

Like you, I usually don't see those interactions that could cause problems unless someone points them out to me. And I also agree that ideally intelligent items would be rare and wonderful. However, there are stories out there to be told that include intelligent items and you all have surprised and entertained me in the past with your histories and personalities. I'd like to see what happens with this.

Qik · Feb 3, 2012

Personally, I think they'd be a great thing to have, although I readily admit saying so from a fluff standpoint, without having really examined the mechanics. As a burgeoning GM, I'd love to run a short adventure revolving around the obtaining of such an item, or the enlivening of its power, etc. Makes for a good opportunity to make our LPF adventures all the more unique.

Beyond that, I just thought it mentioning that, as things stand, intelligent items are currently allowed in certain cases: I'm thinking specifically of the Magus' Blackblade archetype, which is currently available, which endows the PC with an intelligent weapon at level 3.

Satin Knights · Feb 4, 2012

I want them, so I won't point out the problems. :devil:

Unless you beg.

The Pendulum of Fate swings in a much wider arc with intelligent items in the game. If you want everyone limited to bland and average, then it would be no for intelligent items. If you want to see epic victories and catastrophic disasters, then a yes vote will unleash the chaos!

PS. chaos favors the GM.

And The Law of Averages favors the GM.

jackslate45 · Feb 5, 2012

The only question I had is how a wizards arcane bond works with intelligent items. I figured that it was 1/2 price for the magic item (ie. Hand of the mage) and full price for making it intelligent.

At any rate, Anaerion would LOVE having an intelligent item as his bonded item. I imagined the bond growing that much more powerful as Anaerion himself grows stronger.

IronWolf · Feb 5, 2012

I don't have anything against intelligent items in LPF, but tailor made intelligent items that have the player rolling for tailor made improvements strikes me as odd (more the tailor made than the rolling, the rolling is good).

As a GM I don't make a lot of use of intelligent items, but the other GM that runs for my group makes good use of them. They always seem to have some con to their normal pros. So there is enough good about them that keeps you wanting to use it and it is beneficial, but then there is that con that always crops up at the most inconvenient time. If we have players tailor making their items I am not sure we'll see many cons or traits that aren't really that welcome from the intelligent item.

So intelligent magic items sounds cool. Self selecting intelligent magic items concerns me.

What if we assigned a GM patron to someone's magic item? So if mowgli wants a magic item, say a GM volunteers to be the item's patron. The GM gets a little info on what mowgli would like to see and then the GM builds up the item. Sure it will have some of the things mowgli is looking for, but will also have some "quirks" that might manifest themselves over the course of an adventure that take mowgli by surprise.

Of course the downside is that GMs rotate....

Or how about this.

No GM involved. Player rolls for the feature they want. If they miss their roll the item gets a quirk in its personality.

Qik · Feb 5, 2012

IronWolf said:
What if we assigned a GM patron to someone's magic item? So if mowgli wants a magic item, say a GM volunteers to be the item's patron. The GM gets a little info on what mowgli would like to see and then the GM builds up the item. Sure it will have some of the things mowgli is looking for, but will also have some "quirks" that might manifest themselves over the course of an adventure that take mowgli by surprise.

Of course the downside is that GMs rotate....

I think you make some great points, IronWolf, and I love this idea of having an outside contribution to the creation of an intelligent item: it provides a nice simulation of the fact that the item is an independent entity. Of course the rotation of GMs in LPF complicates things a bit, but I don't think it'd be difficult to have the GM patron fill in other GMs as to the items quirks and habits. This process would just lead to the collaborative world building which so much of LPF relies on.

Satin Knights · Feb 5, 2012

a) there are no drawback traits until you get to the cursed item table.
b) since we have 100% value sell back, if you don't like how it turned out, you can dump it and try again.
c) it should be easier for a bladebound magus than a wizard with a bonded item, and easier for both vs a general caster.
d) since the construction cost table is static and public, it is hard to hide a quirk or special power.
e) flaws should increase as the item grows in ego power. finding flaws that are a bit annoying but will not push the character to sell off the item is a tricky balancing game.

I have several ideas to solve all of those issues and more, but they require going off book in many, many ways. I have a lot of experience with intelligent items, for back in the second edition days, I played a PC that was an intelligent falchion.

If we want intelligent items to be rare, hard to get, and harder to get rid of, with many mysteries and quirks, I can run an NPC binder in the Pearl that will do the crafting and binding. The rules would vary by power level and be hidden from the public. Just entering the shop and trying to get an item would be a micro adventure of 3-10 posts.

Or we could go "by the book" which will make the items pretty much cookie cutter as normal magic items are now.

Either way, GMs in games should keep a "happiness counter" running in their games in the background for intelligent items. They have the personalities of cats. And they are in the control of the GM. They will whine, complain, or sidetrack a situation as their fickle mood sees fit. At any stressful time, the item can force an ego contest. Being patient, it will choose the most opportune time, when the PC is suffering an effect that hampers his will save. If the PC fails, the item takes dominance for a day at least.

IronWolf · Feb 5, 2012

Satin Knights said:
e) flaws should increase as the item grows in ego power. finding flaws that are a bit annoying but will not push the character to sell off the item is a tricky balancing game.

This point here is what I would like to see in LPF. To me an intelligent item with some sort of flaw is what really makes them memorable. Not one that makes a player regret ever having the item, but one that is annoying at the wrong times. If we can capture this with whatever system we go with, it will have my vote.

Satin Knight said:
I have several ideas to solve all of those issues and more, but they require going off book in many, many ways. I have a lot of experience with intelligent items, for back in the second edition days, I played a PC that was an intelligent falchion.

While in org play type games I typically tend towards rules by the book (which is quite different than my normal home games), but in this case I lean towards a system that works for LPF. Cookie cutter intelligent items just rub me the wrong way. Enough that I would be interested in a "going off book" set of rules just for LPF to reflect the unique nature of our shared world.

Satin Knights · Feb 7, 2012

OK. I will start writing out my ideas and tuck them away in the judge's gmail account. They will be based on the premise of entering the shop and asking the binder for what you want. He will then ask what you are prepared to sacrifice to obtain your goals. There will always be an unpublished chance of failure or mishap, but the greater the sacrifice, the less the chance of mishap. While there are flat rates for the services, the character will not know what they are.

Actually, I am thinking of starting the shop as it's own thread just so intelligent items don't get lost in the Pearl. And some of the bartering with the shop owner will be done by private messaging so as to not give clues to the next victim/patron walking through the door.

Time Crunch: Systole may be kicking off an adventure this week. If anyone is looking at acquiring an intelligent item before that adventure starts, they should shout out now in this thread so I can get all the dominoes lined up. Kalgor is interested, but already ran out of sufficient money to start down that path yet.