The Paladin and the Stirges

Kynn said:

The "PR nightmare" is not anything to do with Dave's actions at the game table or at the blog. It's to do with the way that WotC is handling release of information on 5e.

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Here's where I disagree whole-heartedly.

The more I read the discussions the more I see people commenting that either paid little attention to what was actually said by the developers, don't understand how to read for context, or just plain love to complain about things.

WotC has no control over that and until the playtest rules actually hit the table-tops, nothing of that will change. Also there are a certain number of folks that will complain anyway because they can, even then.

I'll give one example without pointing to specific people or threads. Some posters have stated that there is nothing from 3e or 4e in 5e. Nothing could be further from the truth. Reading through the transcripts of the seminars there are numerous instances pointing out that things from those editions will indeed be in 5e. After-all the goal is to have people from all editions be able to game together at the same table.

Hey Morrus and mods, we need an opposit of the xp button, a *SLAP* button that let's us notify someone they missed something.

Kynn said:

The "PR nightmare" refers to the way that WotC has chosen, at this early stage in the game, to address giving out information about D&D Next.

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Boy, I could not disagree with you more.

Compare this to the 4e launch. 4e was not announced until 6 months out in order to prevent sales cannibalization. D&D Next is announced - what? a year, a year and a half? - ahead of launch. 4e was (IMO) inadequately playtested. D&D Next is getting an extensive open playtest, modeled after Paizo's immense success with Pathfinder, and has already started a Friends & Family playtest. And shockingly, they had enough confidence that the game was fun that they allowed normal people to play it even in its very rough state. That speaks volumes to me, both in terms of how they feel about this game and in their openness.

nedjer said:

As with so many of these 'one true way' simulationist posts there's no explanation to go with the claims. A PR nightmare is Gerald Ratner saying his bling's crap or Perrier water with unhealthy chemicals in it.

So, let's be having it. What is so terrible about the handling of the release of information on 5e. Should it be gift-wrapped? Delivered by burlesque dancers? Dipped in chocolate and hand-fed through a strainer?

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The approach they've taken with allowing certain high-profile bloggers, journalists, and visitors to a single con to playtest something and then talk about it "under NDA" is part of the process that I think is flawed.

It leads, for example, for gamers hungry for information about D&D Next to examine every dribble of information ("aha! there are DWARVES in D&D Next, we know that much!") as a potential clue to the system.

It would probably be better if they simply said either "talk about whatever you like, we're going to change it 137 times in the next week anyway" (i.e., no NDA) or had said simply said "don't talk about."

Instead there's this somewhat halfassed approached whereby many people who try to follow the topic are left confused as to whether stirges do Con damage that takes weeks to heal, or whether there's something odd about healing in general (as a few playtesters have reported), or if boss fights in 5e really take 5 minutes, or whatever.

Their releases of information on what they want to put in the system, from their seminars, have been okay -- but WotC is still being pretty deliberately tight-lipped about nearly everything, from the vague L&L columns on down. That doesn't seem like a great idea when you're (maybe?) 18 months out from a release; maybe they should be holding back less instead of dropping tantalizing clues, if they're not ready to even let anyone know when the "open playtest" is really going to be open? (So far it's all been an under-NDA playtest and not open.)

So yeah, I think WotC is handling this poorly in a way that isn't productive for them (putting aside whether people are speculating irresponsibly for a minute) and I think they could handle it better. It was probably premature to do a well-advertised playtest at this time, for example.

The fact that Dave's and Mike's posts ignited minor kerfluffles is proof there's a problem -- and yeah, part of the "blame" goes on those people who make assumptions.

(Which is why I thought it was appropriate to start this thread here and point out that faulty assumptions ARE being made when we interpret DM fluff decisions from DDXP reports as being something based in 5e rules.)

catsclaw227 said:

I understood very clearly that you were talking about it being WoTC's PR nightmare and not Dave's.

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Then why did you answer the question of "who is blaming the bloggers for this?" by saying I was?

If anything, I think it's good WoTC has been allowing this and now it's sad that someone like Dave Chalker may now be reluctant to talk about his experience for fear of someone blasting WoTC for it.

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I didn't contribute to the imbroglio on this topic; I'm posting to warn people AGAINST reading too much into the situation.

You seem to be attacking me for something I quite clearly didn't do.

Kynn said:

So yeah, I think WotC is handling this poorly in a way that isn't productive for them (putting aside whether people are speculating irresponsibly for a minute) and I think they could handle it better. It was probably premature to do a well-advertised playtest at this time, for example.

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Actually, I think it has been pretty productive for them. For every one who complained about the stirges, I've seen just as many who were excited that it might be something that's in the game again. Haters are going to hate, regardless of what they do.

Tortoise said:

Here's where I disagree whole-heartedly.

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Plane Sailing said:

I'm afraid I completely disagree with you here.

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Piratecat said:

Boy, I could not disagree with you more.

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I'm okay with being disagreed with.

SarahDarkmagic said:

Actually, I think it has been pretty productive for them. For everyone who complained about the stirges, I've seen just as many who were excited that it might be something that's in the game again. Haters are going to hate, regardless of what they do.

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I suppose, but it doesn't seem as if those who are pleased with long recovery times are any more accurate than those who were displeased. I mean, neither side knows anything about the rules now, or rather, near as we can tell, there isn't anything rules-wise that means charging into a bunch of stirges is likely to take you out for a few weeks.

Piratecat said:

Compare this to the 4e launch. 4e was not announced until 6 months out in order to prevent sales cannibalization. D&D Next is announced - what? a year, a year and a half? - ahead of launch. 4e was (IMO) inadequately playtested. D&D Next is getting an extensive open playtest, modeled after Paizo's immense success with Pathfinder, and has already started a Friends & Family playtest. And shockingly, they had enough confidence that the game was fun that they allowed normal people to play it even in its very rough state. That speaks volumes to me, both in terms of how they feel about this game and in their openness.

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"You must spread XP blah blah blah blah"

When we got our first glimmers of 4E, the rules were already pretty much set in stone. At this stage, it's safe to say we are in pre-alpha, and everything is up in the air. It is unprecedented* for a new game in this early of a state to have so much playtesting (in reference to DDXP).

*I don't consider Pathfinder to be an exception to this, given the 8-year pedigree of its underlying mechanics.

So, just to make sure I understand you Kynn.

You are claiming that this is a PR nightmare for WotC because random people on the internet are jumping to conclusions based on little or no information.

That is what the internet does!

I think rather that this is a PR win for WotC. I have read a number of different blogs and posts where people are recounting their experiences at DDXP. No matter the edition that these people favour, they almost all seem to come out feeling "this has the same feel as the edition I prefer."

One of the universal statements that has been made throughout the lifetime of 4E has been "Let us playtest!! Let us playtest!!" That is what WotC is doing, and they are reaping their (for the moment) well-justified rewards. Enthusiasm is high, as is the excitement and energy.

Kynn said:

Then why did you answer the question of "who is blaming the bloggers for this?" by saying I was?

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I mistyped what I was trying to say. I apologize for that. I was referring to you calling it a PR Nightmare for WoTC and I didn't clarify. My Bad.

Kynn said:

I didn't contribute to the imbroglio on this topic; I'm posting to warn people AGAINST reading too much into the situation.

You seem to be attacking me for something I quite clearly didn't do.

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I am not attacking you, but I am questioning your need to call it a PR Nightmare when it in actually is quite far from it. My understanding is that most people have reacted quite positively from the "liner notes" that some DDXP players and DMs are providing.

kynn; said:

The approach they've taken with allowing certain high-profile bloggers, journalists, and visitors to a single con to playtest something and then talk about it "under NDA" is part of the process that I think is flawed.

It leads, for example, for gamers hungry for information about D&D Next to examine every dribble of information ("aha! there are DWARVES in D&D Next, we know that much!") as a potential clue to the system.

It would probably be better if they simply said either "talk about whatever you like, we're going to change it 137 times in the next week anyway" (i.e., no NDA) or had said simply said "don't talk about."

Instead there's this somewhat halfassed approached whereby many people who try to follow the topic are left confused as to whether stirges do Con damage that takes weeks to heal, or whether there's something odd about healing in general (as a few playtesters have reported), or if boss fights in 5e really take 5 minutes, or whatever.

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If people take one of these blog posts and try to derive the fact that, for example, there are no Dwarves in D&D Next is not the fault of the blogger nor the fault of a poorly designed PR campaign. This is the fault of the reader trying to squeeze something out of a blog post when they already know that there is nothing set in stone and these are only individual experiences and stories.

As a potential solution, maybe the bloggers can state in advance that these are stories and not to try to glean any mechanics or rules from the blog post.