[AD&D 1st] Godless/Animist Clerics?

Siuis

Explorer
I'm putting together a game using my old and rediscovered 1st edition books, and am using the opportunity to play around with new ideas for world building. one of the things I'm working on is that the area the players will start in (and build characters from) doesn't have deities or a pantheon in the usual (Greco-roman) sense; there is a tiered hierarchy of spirits, certainly, but they are dealt with, not worshipped. Except I realized the party would probably then not have a cleric, and I don't know that anyone would roll well enough to be a Druid, present to play one.

The area has a heavy mish-mash of Nordic and Celtic flavoring, ruling out straight animistic priests. I keep getting fleeting ideas, but when I examine how to implement them they fall apart. I want to keep things to an otherwise by the book feel, but I may have to give on this (or have cleric players come from an area where they are more likely to exist).

Anyone have any thoughts or ideas on how to make this work? I'm flustered to the point of actually losing sleep...
 

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Celebrim

Legend
The area has a heavy mish-mash of Nordic and Celtic flavoring, ruling out straight animistic priests.

I don't understand why.

Even in 1st edition, though the Cleric was a servant of a diety, his spells were actually granted to him by lesser spirits. So why is it a problem to have an animistic Cleric, especially in a system as abstract as 1e? It sounds to me like you have a flavor problem and not a mechanical problem. Is there something mechanically wrong with the Cleric as a simulation of an animistic priest?

I can't help but feeling you are coming at this problem with far too modern of a mindset, both in your approach to the rules, and in your assumptions about the nature of religion.
 

Siuis

Explorer
I don't understand why.

Even in 1st edition, though the Cleric was a servant of a diety, his spells were actually granted to him by lesser spirits. So why is it a problem to have an animistic Cleric, especially in a system as abstract as 1e? It sounds to me like you have a flavor problem and not a mechanical problem. Is there something mechanically wrong with the Cleric as a simulation of an animistic priest?

I can't help but feeling you are coming at this problem with far too modern of a mindset, both in your approach to the rules, and in your assumptions about the nature of religion.

The trouble I have is that I am possibly being too literal-minded about it. Up to fourth level spells are granted not just by a spirit, but specifically "a servant of the deity". I think I'm doing ok on the religion front, but am chagrined to find that the cleric class must be shoe-horned in.

That being said, it's entirely possible you are right. I may be hung up on small details. I could get cleric as is to fit rather well - as a servant of the spirits, sort of how a witch was assumed to cavort with demons and such. I dismissed this as applicable for for a PC, but that is laziness on my part...

What resources would you suggest if I am coming at this with too modern a mindset? I fear my own may be insufficient.
 

Celebrim

Legend
What resources would you suggest if I am coming at this with too modern a mindset? I fear my own may be insufficient.

Religions of Rome by Mary Beard is an excellent place to start if you want to divorse your sense of what it means to be religious by a world view almost entirely shaped by monotheism. If that's relatively inaccessible, Wikipedia is a fountain of easily minable information. The important thing to remember is that you shouldn't be equating the generic notion of 'god' with the monotheistic notion of a supreme being who is solely worthy of worship and adoration, or even with the notion that the relationship of the worshiper to the god is one of love, admiration and respect. Or for that matter that what gods want is sincere worship and faith. All of these are aspects especially taken together are fairly unique to one religious system, and while they can show up to various elsewhere, too much of that view taints a polytheistic approach.

One thing that I think you can get hung up on as a DM is the notion that everything that is different needs different mechanics. I've been there. But quite often you can take something like bugbear, change the description however you like (tentacled horror, 16 legged clawed worm, scaled humanoid with six eyes), and the mechanical description is still good enough for the purpose. In this way you can get a lot of milage out of your monsters, and you can save your creativity for things that matter more.
 

Sekhmet

First Post
A quick aside from where the topic is headed, if I may.
You could consider the idea that clerics worship "the spirits", rather than individual spirits, and that the various spells they are given are granted by one or multiple spirits depending on the level of the spell.
In core, spells up to 4th are granted by servants of a deity, we can call these spirits.
After 4th, multiple spirits would need to band together to offer spells to their worshipers.

While this may sound somewhat complicated as an idea, the mechanics would not change from core, and it would open up a more personal connection to the beings that grant you spells.
Clerics would be far more protective of the spirits (beings that walk amongst us, can be hurt, can be killed) than they are the Gods.

Holy Roleplay, Batman!
 

Siuis

Explorer
Religions of Rome by Mary Beard is an excellent place to start if you want to divorse your sense of what it means to be religious by a world view almost entirely shaped by monotheism. If that's relatively inaccessible, Wikipedia is a fountain of easily minable information. The important thing to remember is that you shouldn't be equating the generic notion of 'god' with the monotheistic notion of a supreme being who is solely worthy of worship and adoration, or even with the notion that the relationship of the worshiper to the god is one of love, admiration and respect. Or for that matter that what gods want is sincere worship and faith. All of these are aspects especially taken together are fairly unique to one religious system, and while they can show up to various elsewhere, too much of that view taints a polytheistic approach.

Ah, I see. I think we have had a miscommunication then.

My trouble is that we want as close to "by the book" as possible, while I myself still want to try something new. My trouble is the cleric class specifically is modeled after a monotheistic crusader archetype, and the most Immediate answer for how to change that is already supplied - the Druid class. I've considered modeling them as Goði, or Vittan, or even as shamans, but I can't come up with a happy medium that my players will digest.

I don't have trouble avoiding monotheism, I have trouble stripping the monotheist class from monotheism without crossing the line into homebrew. You are right though, when you say

One thing that I think you can get hung up on as a DM is the notion that everything that is different needs different mechanics. I've been there. But quite often you can take something like bugbear, change the description however you like (tentacled horror, 16 legged clawed worm, scaled humanoid with six eyes), and the mechanical description is still good enough for the purpose. In this way you can get a lot of milage out of your monsters, and you can save your creativity for things that matter more.

And I am probably splitting hairs. In my sleep deprived delirium I tried to reconcile turn undead with all these notions, and my brain went to mush. I think I may have to add a homebrew option after all, probably the incite berserk from 2nd. Edition.

Still, thanks for the poking and prodding. Youv'e got me up and moving again mentally.

A quick aside from where the topic is headed, if I may.
You could consider the idea that clerics worship "the spirits", rather than individual spirits, and that the various spells they are given are granted by one or multiple spirits depending on the level of the spell.
In core, spells up to 4th are granted by servants of a deity, we can call these spirits.
After 4th, multiple spirits would need to band together to offer spells to their worshipers.

While this may sound somewhat complicated as an idea, the mechanics would not change from core, and it would open up a more personal connection to the beings that grant you spells.
Clerics would be far more protective of the spirits (beings that walk amongst us, can be hurt, can be killed) than they are the Gods.

Holy Roleplay, Batman!

this is probably where I will go with it. What struck me as a problem was the PHB reference to clerics as members of knightly orders. I thought I could arrange them in lines of Herod all belonging to one long house, or an order of reavers, or a group as Cú Chulain had in the red branch. And I got tangled up again. I can't satisfy all three components, so maybe it will be best to just gloss over it for now.

I suppose I should list them all, aye?
- how would turn undead be handled for these clerics?
- how would the notion of a knightly order be handled?
- how do I maintain the cleric as a devotee of some otherworldly power?

My possibilities seem to be heroes who draw from their valor and glory; warlocks using pacts with the faerie court / giants and trolls to work magic; animists separate from Druids who channel the spirits around them, despite the spirits being viewed as antagonists or rivals.

I think I see the root. I'll have to set this aside and do some more world building. I'm being to humanocentric, the answer is probably in how I will array the elves dwarves and gnomes.

Thank y'all for the help.
 


Sekhmet

First Post
I'm very tired and may be incoherent.
The Turn Undead issue can be handled easily enough; the spirits feel that undead are unnatural abominations that must be destroyed, so they grant the power to turn or rebuke.

To maintain connection to otherworldy power is a difficult task, especially if you want the spirits to walk amongst/interact with people. However, you could also say that the spirits are the creations of some deity of nature, that permeates all things; they could call it the Spirit of Life or some other cheesetastic moniker.
inb4 it turns out to be a female halforc with an opium addiction

As it was in AD&D and up until D&D 3.0, maintaining Clerics as knightly orders is very simple. Their faith and devotion has brought them to learn about defense, so that they can protect their faith from would be any assailant, be it physical or spiritual. They quickly learn that they also need to protect the community from harm, as they have made a vow to protect their souls, so to should they protect their bodies.
Suddenly, monastic orders pop up, giving would be priests the know how to swing a mace and wear full plate mail all day.
 

Celebrim

Legend
My trouble is that we want as close to "by the book" as possible, while I myself still want to try something new. My trouble is the cleric class specifically is modeled after a monotheistic crusader archetype, and the most Immediate answer for how to change that is already supplied - the Druid class.

I'm inclined to disagree with that assessment of the Druid class. The Druid class has a very limited relationship to anything but itself, and while it's got amazing creativity and thought put into it, it really isn't modeled on anything. We know virtually nothing about the real Druid of history, but one thing we can be certain of is that it had nothing to do with the Druid of D&D at all. We don't know even to what extent the Druid was an animistic priest or a polytheistic one. We know nothing of their rituals or beliefs. Virtually everything that people think they know about the Druids - mistletoe, holly, sickles, long beards, astronomy, nature loving, robes, etc. - is entirely a whole cloth invention by various writers with various agendas in the 15th century and even the 19th century. The 'Druid' as a fantasy role-playing class has become its own archetype based on the Druid, in the same way that the Ranger as a fantasy role-playing class is only barely based on its inspiration in the Lord of the Rings (Aragorn for example never uses a bow at any point in the books) and is instead now mostly self-referentially based on itself.

I am uncertain what exactly you are trying to model. You seem hung up on flavor requirements, yet you don't seem to be bothered by Brigid, Balder, or Wotan being worshiped by Great Druids who have to fight to assume the position, can shape change into animals, and who hold mistletoe to be sacred and use it all their rites while wielding sickles and Egyptian kopesh. If you really feel the need to closely mechanically model individual priesthoods, you'll have to use something like the specialty priesthood mechanics of 2e and roll your own class(es). Or you could use the 1e class as is, and just roll your own flavor. In 3e, I tend to use the Green Ronin shaman class in the roles you seem to be focused on, and it would be a bit of work to back port it to 1e but there is a lot of compatibility to between the two in the spell lists and its basically a straight port.

I've considered modeling them as Goði, or Vittan, or even as shamans, but I can't come up with a happy medium that my players will digest.

Honestly, if you are doing northwestern Europeans, you'd probably model a lot of them as Bards.... though granted, the Bard itself has taken on a life of its own and its no longer well grounded in the inspiration of the Kalevala.

- how would turn undead be handled for these clerics?

Just as is. Undead are evil spirits and the clerics naturally have the ability to rebuke them because of the knowledge that they have of spiritual matters. Exorcism is not a uniquely Christian concept, and indeed, compared to animistic religions its not even a central rite.

how would the notion of a knightly order be handled?

Ignored in most cases, and expanded to include something other than the high middle ages concept of what it means to be a knight where applicable. For example, what does a 'knight' look like in 4th century Sweden, shorn of its southern European romantic high medieval notions? It's a low born warrior mercenary, akin more to the notion of bandit than the plate mail wearing crusader of Hollywood or concensus fantasy.

how do I maintain the cleric as a devotee of some otherworldly power?

By understanding that the role of an animistic cleric, even as devotee, is different than the monotheistic conception. In this case, 'devotee' can mean things like 'vassal', 'ally', 'employee', or even 'customer'. The priest performs rituals that appease or please some otherworldly power in exchange for power and favors. It's less a matter of serving as it is a matter of buying things from the diety. Thus, you might not even like the diety you are nominally associated with. It may simply be that it doesn't rain unless you give the deity his yearly human sacrifice, and the kidneys of six spring lambs, and a jug of wine every year and for the good of the community well that's what you do. Meanwhile you aren't in an exclusive relationship. Polytheism is just that, and by monotheistic conceptions, its promiscuous in its worship. You go ahead and worship the god in a particular oak tree (a dryad?) if that gets you what you want. Polytheistic gods aren't typically 'jealous' so long as they get what they want. Indeed, there may be an assumption that you worship all of the gods to prevent one from being jealous and offended by you paying special attention to another one. You end up with a long list of things you must do to keep everyone happy, petty spiteful things that gods tend to be.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Both the Celtic and Norse pantheons are presented in Deities and Demigods (a.k.a. Legends and Lore) - why not just re-skin those deities as spirits and carry on from there? (and if you want to expand on what the books can give you, wikipedia is your friend...)

Maybe - and this would be all behind the scenes - the deities have chosen to present themselves as spirits to the local folk as that is what said folk find more acceptable. Thus, for gameplay purposes it shows as what you want - and might even give you a storyline later when the adventurers learn what the spirits really are. :)

Side note: a very long time ago we re-built Druids as "Nature Clerics", they use the Druid spell list but otherwise work as Clerics - can be any alignment, get their powers from deities, etc. If you want to have it that such characters get their powers straight from nature (or the Earth, whatever), there's enough divine Earth Mother archetypes out there to easily make this happen - their powers actually come from the divine Earth Mother, but from the character's point of view they come from nature itself.

Lanefan
 

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