Witch spell question

Summer-Knight925 · Feb 13, 2012

How many spells does a witch know? Is it like the cleric and knows the whole list?

DogBackward · Feb 13, 2012

No, the Witch works like the Wizard. You start with 3+Intelligence 1st level spells known, and all 0 level spells. Then you learn 2 new spells at each Witch level above 1st. Your Witch spells are "stored" in your familiar similar to the way a Wizard has a spellbook, and you have to commune with your familiar for one hour to prepare spells, just like a Wizard has to use their spellbook to prepare spells. The only real difference is that the Witch's familiar doesn't have a limited number of "pages" of spells it can hold.

N'raac · Feb 13, 2012

The Witch basic class info is online at Witch - Pathfinder_OGC. The rules for a witch's spell selection are cleverly hidden in the section on Witch Familiar.

A witch must commune with her familiar each day to prepare her spells. Familiars store all of the spells that a witch knows, and a witch cannot prepare a spell that is not stored by her familiar. A witch’s familiar begins play storing all of the 0-level witch spells plus three 1stlevel spells of the witch’s choice. The witch also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to her Intelligence modifier to store in her familiar. At each new witch level, she adds two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new witch level) to her familiar. A witch can also add additional spells to her familiar through a special ritual.

Basically, the special ritual requires you to have, and destroy, a scroll of the desired spell, then make a spellcraft check similar to the check a wizard uses to learn a spell.

In addition to these spells, each witch selects a patron, and the patron adds a spell to the witch's repertoire at each even numbered level, starting with a 1st level spell at 2nd level and endng with a 9th level spell at L18.

Witch familiars are detailed more at Witch's Familiar - Pathfinder_OGC. Note that, if the familiar dies or is otherwise lost,

it can be replaced 1 day later through a special ritual that costs 500 gp per witch level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete. A new familiar begins knowing all of the 0-level spells plus two spells of every level the witch is able to cast. These are in addition to any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch’s level and her patron (see patron spells).

. Losing your familiar is pretty serious business for a witch.

gamerprinter · Feb 13, 2012

As nobody has seemed to mention but the Witch has a Witch's spell list - a limited list of spells. Many of the new PF classes have their own limited list of spells (each different from the other), this includes bard, paladin, inquisitor, ranger, magus, summoner and witch.

The witch gains some bonus healing spells, but still their primary list of spells is pretty limited. Consider Fireball is not on the Witch's spell list, among many others.

N'raac · Feb 14, 2012

gamerprinter said:
As nobody has seemed to mention but the Witch has a Witch's spell list - a limited list of spells. Many of the new PF classes have their own limited list of spells (each different from the other), this includes bard, paladin, inquisitor, ranger, magus, summoner and witch.

The witch gains some bonus healing spells, but still their primary list of spells is pretty limited. Consider Fireball is not on the Witch's spell list, among many others.

They definitely have a different flavour. I'm not sure my L1 Witch has any spells which can inflict direct damage - definitely a support combatant rather than the guy who will take the opponents down.

DogBackward · Feb 14, 2012

They've got a few direct-damage spells, like Burning Hands at level one. But really, Witches are amazing debuffers. At first level, a Witch with Extra Hex can cause a target to roll 2d20 and take the lowest for all d20 rolls for one round as a standard action, then spend a move action to turn that into two rounds. Then to the same thing to a different guy next round, while extending the duration of both penalties by a round. Get higher levels, when you can start stacking debuff hexes on a single target while keeping them going via Cackle, and it's disgusting.

Speaking of disgusting, I love the theme of a lot of the witch spells. They have the perfect squicky feel. Vomiting a swarm of bugs, leaving my skeleton behind and walking around as my skin, being surrounded and carried by a swarm of wasps. It's all incredibly thematic and very cool.

I love the witch.

N'raac · Feb 14, 2012

DogBackward said:
They've got a few direct-damage spells, like Burning Hands at level one.

There's a sonic one that does some damage at L1 in one of the books as well. I know I didn't take BH; not sure as I think about the sonic one. As I said, I don't think my witch has any direct damage spells. Others could go for a different build.

DogBackward said:
But really, Witches are amazing debuffers. At first level, a Witch with Extra Hex can cause a target to roll 2d20 and take the lowest for all d20 rolls for one round as a standard action, then spend a move action to turn that into two rounds. Then to the same thing to a different guy next round, while extending the duration of both penalties by a round. Get higher levels, when you can start stacking debuff hexes on a single target while keeping them going via Cackle, and it's disgusting.

This is definitely their forte. But, as I said, it makes them a support character - you can debuff all you like, but someone has to finish the enemy off. That's the feel I'm going for with this particular character, so we'll see how it plays out in practice. Worst case, I can always learn a damaging spell at L2 or later levels. As for hexes, I'm starting with Evil Eye and Cackle, but same basic logic applies. Extra Hex seems likely to be chosen more than once over time...but then, I've never found a lot of standard Arcane feats appealed.

DogBackward · Feb 14, 2012

If nothing else, you can use the Slumber hex to put someone to sleep, then use a Coup de Grace to finish them off. If you're worried about thematics, you can fluff it as offreing a sacrifice to your patron. Make sure to only use a dagger or short-sword (athame), and only use that weapon for the purpose of your "sacrifices".

StreamOfTheSky · Feb 15, 2012

Witch definitely is more support/debuff, and their spell list is annoyingly focused on mind-affecting will saves and divinations, expecially at low levels. Patron choice can help. You could take Elements and get some blast spells, unfortunately mostly fire. You could then take Dazing Spell feat and be able to throw save or lose effects against any of the 3 saves (you get tons of will save effects and by level 10 you have Ice Tomb hex and Baleful Polymorph for fort). I think the "Triple Threat" is a pretty solid Witch build.

I have a Witch Handbook, if you'd like, though it's based upon doing the most optimal things. Like...getting Slumber, boosting the DC sky high and taking Accursed Hex for when it misses, and spamming save or lose stuff every round. May not appeal to your tastes.

But the feat, familiar, and patron advice might still be helpful, and I actually listed and rated every single witch spell.

DogBackward said:
If nothing else, you can use the Slumber hex to put someone to sleep, then use a Coup de Grace to finish them off. If you're worried about thematics, you can fluff it as offreing a sacrifice to your patron. Make sure to only use a dagger or short-sword (athame), and only use that weapon for the purpose of your "sacrifices".

It's much more efficient to use ready or delay to Slumber an enemy just before an ally within melee reach (or within a 5 ft step of melee reach) has his turn, though.

DogBackward · Feb 15, 2012

StreamOfTheSky said:
It's much more efficient to use ready or delay to Slumber an enemy just before an ally within melee reach (or within a 5 ft step of melee reach) has his turn, though.

I meant as an option to deal damage yourself. Most of the time, you should be concentrating on making it easier for your allies to kill things, yeah. But people were talking about a lack of damage-dealing potential for the Witch in general. And this is at least one way to possibly kill something yourself, if need be.

I'll take a look at your other stuff. I'm making a Witch as a backup character for our current game, at level 11, so it's bound to be helpful. Thanks.