Morrus on... Races

Klaus said:

I want race to matter.

I want half-orc wizards whose inner ferocity is reflected in their spells.
I want a dwarf bard who can lead his companions with valorous deeds and hearty music, if not words.
I want a halfling fighter who wears chainmail and darts about the battlefield, short sword and shield in hand.
I want an elf barbarian, who rides a griffon into battle.

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I'm in the same camp but would also include that I do not want to see any of the following:

• Pixie/Halfling fighters with strength stats even close your average orc adventurer
• Dwarves/Orcs with nimbleness close to that of any ElfHalling adventurer

I never again want to see 4e's high-strength Pixies/Hallings in any game. By 4e's definition of strength ("Strength measures your character’s physical power") there is no way a creature with the mass of a Pixie can exert force anything close to a creature 10-100x the weight/mass. Just not happening. Now, I'm all for Pixie fighters being extremely deft in combat, almost impossible to grab and catch, but they should do very little brute force damage. Instead, a Pixie fighter should be as competent as an Orc fighter in combat, but should accomplish it with non-brute force means, such as lots of little stabbity hits that do much lower damage, possibly to vulnerable body locations (eyes, groin, neck, etc.).

As others mentioned, I'd like to see the same from your Dwarven Wizard. A mountain of endurance to cast spells with, but less gifted with all but earthy spells.

Lastly, racial benefits, such as 4e's feats or powers, should be race defining. You should be afraid when the Orc goes berserk (as a wizard or warrior) and you should be very afraid knowing there is a Elf skulking around that you can't see. In short, the racial powers/feats should be EXTREMELY powerful, lasting and being pronounced throughout all class levels, possibly as strong (or more?) than as any high-level class feature.

I agree with the mouse on this one, not have it be about ability scores, but about powers and other things. I really think we should choose to increase class, race and/or theme ever time we gain an something.

You can become more like the platonic ideal of one of the things, or not, but it should be your choice.

I think the problem comes from the grating of finding the right balance and synergy between mechanics and fluff.

Fluff by its nature is almost formless like pretty wispy pink smoke. It's nice to look at and can randomly become anything you can imagine like an animated Rorschach test. It is open and chaotic, but on its own has little solidity, meaning and value. Inbridled fluff can make it so that all the players are playing a different game at the same table. Too much fluff emphasis can turn a roleplaying game into a teddy bear tea party.

Mechanics, on the other hand, are fixed and solid. They give the game meaning and sense. They give a common ground between players and DM. The mechanics make it so everyone is playing the same game. The problem with mechanics is they stunt imagination by providing boundaries, or creative cages. Too much mechanics emphasis can turn a roleplaying game into a board game.

So:

'Race Doesn't Matter' = 100% fluff - or meaningless wispy smoke.

'Race Absolutely Matters' = 100% mechanics - or creativity killer.

So I think I'd have to disagree. I think there should always be a balance between the two things.

What kind of balance I'm not sure. But that's why I'm not woking at WOTC. And I'm glad because I can't think of a job that's worst than theirs, except politician, where you can't do anything right. If how good you perform is based on opinion rather than fact you can never win.

AnonGemini said:

So:

'Race Doesn't Matter' = 100% fluff - or meaningless wispy smoke.

'Race Absolutely Matters' = 100% mechanics - or creativity killer.

So I think I'd have to disagree. I think there should always be a balance between the two things.

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You don't disagree. You just missed the line that said "these are the extremes of a comtinuum, and you likely fall somewhere along that scale". You agree!

While I am in the "Race Matters" camp (= mechanics), I favor mechanics that are relatively class neutral, so stacking is de-emphasize.

In my mind, this can be related to bonuses and penalties related to immunities/resistance (i.e., sleep, poison, magic, elements, etc.), movement (including encumbrance), and possibly social.

Would shy away from stat/saving throw bonuses - these are the types that most often lead to"every dwarf is a fighter" situation.

Just my 2 cents.

Mouseferatu said:

For instance, if dwarves are blatantly the best fighters in terms of ability score, than not only do most dwarves become fighters, but most fighters become dwarves.

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No because then they are limited to 9th level. Oh wait.

Seriously though, that was the point of level limits in the first place. Once you take those out (as so many people did), there is no reason to play a human character (as so many people didn't). I'm not sure a bonus feat made up for that in the long run.

Personally, I like the idea of Ability bonuses for non-humans, as it helps to distinguish them as an archetype. Dwarves are supposed to be stocky and strong, no matter how much (random player) likes to play against type. The idea of Ghandi as a dwarf may sound appealing to some people, but I don't see a point in building the game around them.

Tom

Thraug said:

I'm in the same camp but would also include that I do not want to see any of the following:

• Pixie/Halfling fighters with strength stats even close your average orc adventurer
• Dwarves/Orcs with nimbleness close to that of any ElfHalling adventurer

I never again want to see 4e's high-strength Pixies/Hallings in any game. By 4e's definition of strength ("Strength measures your character’s physical power") there is no way a creature with the mass of a Pixie can exert force anything close to a creature 10-100x the weight/mass. Just not happening. Now, I'm all for Pixie fighters being extremely deft in combat, almost impossible to grab and catch, but they should do very little brute force damage. Instead, a Pixie fighter should be as competent as an Orc fighter in combat, but should accomplish it with non-brute force means, such as lots of little stabbity hits that do much lower damage, possibly to vulnerable body locations (eyes, groin, neck, etc.).

As others mentioned, I'd like to see the same from your Dwarven Wizard. A mountain of endurance to cast spells with, but less gifted with all but earthy spells.

Lastly, racial benefits, such as 4e's feats or powers, should be race defining. You should be afraid when the Orc goes berserk (as a wizard or warrior) and you should be very afraid knowing there is a Elf skulking around that you can't see. In short, the racial powers/feats should be EXTREMELY powerful, lasting and being pronounced throughout all class levels, possibly as strong (or more?) than as any high-level class feature.

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I agree, on part. While I don't think "body mass" or some other physics reason should be invoked (after all, any humanoid taller than a goliath shouldn't be able to run or adventure), I think there are ways to make stats mean different things to different races. A pixie should have a very low weight allowance, and have free "finesse" ability, allowing it to use Dex or Cha for attacks. Of course, this would require that classes aren't hard-wired into certain stats, like the 4e class powers (which is why I love the versatility of the Knight and the Slayer).

I would like race to always matter, but I'd like to see NO ability score adjustments, either positive or negative. I think that tends to pigeonhole classes /races.

Something that might work is giving ability score minimums (or maximums) for certain races, but the idea of minimum qualifying ability scores for races and classes pretty much died out after 1e (or was it 2e?)

Cheers

Instead of a goliath/orc/whatever getting a massive Str bonus, they could always get (for example) double encumbrance limit and +2 to damage.

Plane Sailing said:

I would like race to always matter, but I'd like to see NO ability score adjustments, either positive or negative. I think that tends to pigeonhole classes /races.

Something that might work is giving ability score minimums (or maximums) for certain races, but the idea of minimum qualifying ability scores for races and classes pretty much died out after 1e (or was it 2e?)

Cheers

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I think ability score bonuses/penalties only pigeonhole if classes have narrow uses of abilities (indeed I think things have only got narrower in that respect, with 4E essentially saying 'you need 2-3 abilities, the others are maybe helpful a little?' vs. everyone needing good CON to survive and STR to hit and DEX for missile weapons).

Minimums/maximums for abilities, class levels and restrictions on who can be what are, I believe, gone forever. Probably for the best.

I was thinking further about how to bring back racial importance. Many people seem to agree that Halflings should never become as strong as Half-orcs. This makes them bad Fighters, but we don't want that. They should perhaps be allowed to use DEX to attack/damage opponents, ala weapon finesse (something I sorely miss). I am desperate to see a return to 'abilities matter' rather than 'class decides which abilities matter' - I hated CON based attacks being the norm for a specific class setup.

The question is how far to take this, as in, since we separate Rogues from Fighters in class ability terms, does that mean that a Halfling Fighter can't have any Rogue-like features? 4E stymied this again because of it's combat role obsession. If you were to pin a Halfling down in a fight, they'd tumble out of the way and attack you with advantage - Fighter or Rogue. The two really start blurring together for Halflings because they're both 'Martial'. Half-orcs though, well, the Fighters like big pointy things, but the Rogues know they can't get a kidney with a halberd so still seem Rogue-like.

A couple of very simple suggestions, which are a bit simulationist:
- 2H weapons use Str
- 1H weapons use Dex or Str
- No weapons ever use any other ability please

- Make mobility (and choosing light armour) mean something
- Reduce who/when OA occur to help this!