L&L: The Challenges of High Level Play

My 1e games featured demiplanes made or controlled by PCs, too.

pauljathome said:

You've just given me the idea for my next campaign.

The world starts as a low level D&D world. The highest character in the entire world is something like L8. Things like dragons and giants exist but are very rare and take armies to bring down. Basically, an E6 or so world.

Then the caps come off, worldwide. The PCs are amongst the first characters to pass those limits (there are hundreds of others passing those limits at the same time).

The (quite likely multi-generational) campaign then focuses on the changes to the world.

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I did something similar for my 3.0 game. I used the Krynn setting, just after the High God was defeated and before that horrible card game version started, with dragons faking over most of the planet.

I advise having a handful of small, secretive groups get power early to provide a sufficient variety of level-appropriate villains or allies. Once one group is revealed lay some vague clues for several more, that way when a new supplement book come out you can use one of those groups to introduce those new mechanics.

TarionzCousin said:

I hope that the initial play test rules allow high-level play. My 3.5E group played with epic gestalt characters and had a blast. Three of us still game together and are eager to try out "epic" 5E.

If/when that happens, I'll be posting about our experiences on EN World.

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Based on WotC past playtesting, I would vote against WotC providing a 'high level' game at launch.

The 3e and 4e game suffered from too much playtest at low levels resulting in problems even as low as level 5 in 4e (launch 4e already showed problems with grind at this level).

I'd rather them put effort into mid-level and higher level releases as 1 yr and 2 yr down the road launches. This will give enough fan base working with the low level content to better project the higher level content.

Already WotC is sending out the DDXP level 1 adventure as their 'playtest' for others to review and give feedback.

Unless they make some level 5, 10, 15 and higher playtest modules then they'll use the level 1 playtest materials to project how they feel the rest of the system will behave.

GM Dave said:

Already WotC is sending out the DDXP level 1 adventure as their 'playtest' for others to review and give feedback.

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The what which where now? They are? To whom? Is it available to the unwashed masses, or is it still part of the "friends and family" playtest?

Dausuul said:

The what which where now? They are? To whom? Is it available to the unwashed masses, or is it still part of the "friends and family" playtest?

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I get the roleplayingtips.com weekly newsletter/e-zine(I have for years now).

This last week, the author described his receiving the playtest material, using the material to make up characters, and trying out the adventure material provided (not sure which roll out of the playtest this would be but he said he was emailed the material though he has game history credit with several paid courses taught on GMing and some gaming materials produced).

No real details beyond the stuff people already know (mention of NDA in that part of the e-zine).

The only interesting thing is that this is the style of playtesting which reminds me of the playtesting for 4e and the Shadowkeep.

I think it was only when the designers gathered to do a live playtest prior to release where they ran a higher level encounter with a couple of minotaurs, mindflayers and some other things that designers realized they had a 'problem'.

They had two video podcasts of the actual play and still could not get through the encounter. You could look at the faces of the people around the table that were supposed to be trumpeting the game and realizing something wasn't right.

This is why I have concerns that time is given to dedicate to mid-level and later high-level play. It should be a goal of game design but the final product should only be released after there has been time for the lower level material to get established and refined.

GM Dave said:

They had two video podcasts of the actual play and still could not get through the encounter. You could look at the faces of the people around the table that were supposed to be trumpeting the game and realizing something wasn't right.

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Do you have links to these podcasts? It would be interesting to see this specially based on the changes that the game has gone through in 4 years.

GM Dave said:

I think it was only when the designers gathered to do a live playtest prior to release where they ran a higher level encounter with a couple of minotaurs, mindflayers and some other things that designers realized they had a 'problem'.

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Are you talking about the podcast Dave Noonan hosted? If so they did get through it, but few of the people involved seemed very engaged with the whole thing, and as I recall they were handed Paragon-level characters to run before the podcast with little or no prep (I could be mis-remembering). It wasn't a good advert for the game, but you're wrong if you think it was a playtest.

Compare and contrast to the later Acquisitions Incorporated podcasts, which were also running at Paragon level, and with engaged, excited players and some exceptional encounter design by Chris Perkins. As a result they were an absolute blast to watch (and play, no doubt).

Yup, you are right this was the Dave Noonan podcast back in June of 2008. This would have been the month just prior to GenCon 2008.

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (A Paragon Tier Adventure)

I'm not familiar with the Acquisitions Incorporated podcasts but will go looking.

Howdy kigmatzomat!

kigmatzomat said:

Maybe in your game but the 3.0/3.5 psionic books had the "create demiplane" powers that see most definitely used in mine. Admittedly, destroying planets is going a bit far, unless you accept "creating permanent gates to the demonic realms to let untold evil loose on the planet" (an act many sub20th level characters could do, as "destroying it".

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Exactly but I don't count any of that.

If you are not laying waste to (at least) some corner of a planet then you are not playing an epic campaign.

The paragon tier is about putting the dominoes in place, the epic tier is about knocking them down.