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  1. #71
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    Grandmaster of Flowers (Lvl 18)



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    Quote Originally Posted by Water Bob View Post
    We can agree to disagree on that.
    Well as a black gamer who has read many of the original Conan and Solomon Kane stories... as well as some of the correspondences written by Howard... I've come to dislike Howard and view him as racist. Apparently YMMV.

    I've found the stories of Moorcock, Saunders and Lieber to be much more to my liking when it comes to S&S fantasy and dislike the fact that, most of the time, Howard's Conan is held up as the dominant archetype for sword and sorcery games. I understand why, but I just don't particularly like it.





    Quote Originally Posted by Water Bob View Post
    This is the cover of a supplement for the Conan RPG.




    I think it looks pretty cool, especially the chick (and don't call me a sexist or a misogynist because I use the word "chick").

    I fail to see how this book or it's cover, in any way, have anything to do with the stories and writings of Howard?

  2. #72
    I don't think depicting non-white humans in its art is going to hurt D&D with its primary white male audience, unless they did a complete 180 and made the art 98% non-white. I say non-white, because I wanted to include other non-white groups.

    However, I do think continuing to exclude non-white humans from the art could hurt D&D when it comes to expanding the reach of the game beyond a white male audience.
    Last edited by NewJeffCT; Thursday, 23rd February, 2012 at 05:02 PM. Reason: typo

  3. #73
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    Re: Howard as a racist.

    It's one thing to not have ANY black characters in your book (tolkien) and another thing completely to include them and then go out of your way to portray them as less than and devalued as sentient beings. In Howard's stories you get a lot of the latter.

    It's real easy not to see the racism in something when it doesn't effect you or the group that you belong to. It's even easier these days especially to say that people are being oversensitive or whining about racism. Being that this hobby is made up primarily of White Males I'm not at all surprised at some of the responses to this. On the other hand I think the types of responses have improved from 10 years ago. So there's that.

  4. #74
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    OAN: One of the things that attracted me (and continues to attract me) to Earthdawn, when I was younger and just starting out in the rpg hobby, was that it allowed the races such as Elves, Orks, Dwarves, etc. to all have a wide variety of possible skin tones (usually from light to very dark). Suddenly I could play a dark-skinned elf and not have to be from a race that was inherently evil. There was no disconnect, because of varying skin color, for me or anyone else who played in our group because of it's (barely) pseudo-european setting.

  5. #75
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    There is the Talislanta RPG, where all the human groups are archetypes with different values. It plays great. Of course those are fictional groups nothing to do with us, no Asian types, no medieval setting etc.

    Yeah I know what Wikipedia says about Howard. The problem is, nowadays (and even decades ago) you can be called racist (or sexist, or any other negative ism, really) for any number of things/views. I remember my niece and her mother being called racist and sexist once for dressing the girl up as a hula dancer, complete with black make up. So to me, to claim anyone was/is racist other than in a cultural context like the times Howard lived in without real proof (as in comments making it very clear you hate/disapprove of this or that skin color or eye shape) comes over more like a justification to point attention away from one self. Not that that is the case here but I have seen it too often.

    Maybe it is different in the US, but in my experience, what comes over as racism or just prejudice is more often than not a simple egocentric view of the offending person.

    You can make an experiment with children regarding egocentric perception. Take a story not mentioning the color of skin or hair of the protagonist and then ask the child you read to or who has read the story how they think the hero looked like. If you have a child who grew up in a predominantly one race setting, they will almost always describe the hero as being from their race. Even if you have kids from a mixed cultural setting (as in London where I made this experiment) you will get an almost 100% overlap with the race of the reader/listener in the descriptions.

    Could it be that most artists for RPGs are, in fact, white, and thus unconsciously prefer to draw white characters, or are just better at it? Maybe then we need more black ARTISTS in the business and it will fix itself.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewJeffCT View Post
    I don't think depicting non-white humans in its art is going to hurt D&D with its primary white male audience, unless they did a complete 180 and made the art 98% non-white. I saw non-white, because I wanted to not just include black.

    However, I do think continuing to exclude non-white humans from the art could hurt D&D when it comes to expanding the reach of the game beyond a white male audience.
    One of things I liked about the WOTC 3E era as a whole was that the iconics we'rent just another group of white d00ds adventuring. Amber (?) the monk and Redgar (who was really kind of racially indescribable) made a big diference in how I perceived D&D recently.

    Pathfinder has definitely picked up the torch and run with it in their images and world design as well. In terms of Fantasy RPG's for me? inclusive is better. If I cant see myself or a character who looks like myself in the game world without major problems I'd just as soon as not be playing that game. It's one of the reasons why I dont like westerns (as games love 'em as movies) or games set in the 1920's and 30's.

  7. #77
    I don't care about looks. It's a game with fantasy world (or scifi one), and when I make characters I create looks acording to their area. My recent character was from Kapesh and I chose typical looks of that area.

    I don't know why some people are obsessed reflecting this world so much, or their own looks/gender/sexual or political orientation. I find that bit against idea of fantasy game.

    I like fantasy art going when it goes for light/brown/black/green/blue/etc people. It gives some new cool look-ideas for characters.

    Lack of certain variation are probably historical roots of game, and whole fantasy-europe thing. Glorantha had always more variation. AD&D got oriental adventures, probably for coolness of ninjas and samurai's. The fantasy variation.
    Golarion has all kinda of earth-esque people because it's one more "fantasy earth" based universe.

    Golarion is well written and fun but I am not so found of fantasy-earth. I like mine different.

    I am very open to different looks in RL. And I don't fancy my sex/skin color so much I need to repeat it with characters. And some myths/story/areas are closed enough you don't get lot of skin tone/culture variation from those stated with the setting.
    I don't have some obsessive need to create that one who is different (good dark elf, Tarzan etc.). Not all settings have things like demorcracy/communism/feminism/monotonistic religion etc.

    Maybe I have played too much civilization games in my day, but I am kinda stuck with idea that forming of certain political systems needs some cultural evulution happen first.
    There is reason why some of this stuff didn't exist in past.

    Also there is reason why people in my country living here didn't get to see black man/indian in flesh until 1960 something. When travelling far got easier, and internet happened, we at far ends from each other get to meet too. Lot has changed in very short time. During the very same generation.

    So you are wanting to research "fantasy earth" type of games right, Glorantha has Pamaltela (sp?) but people there are literally black.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lwaxy View Post
    Could it be that most artists for RPGs are, in fact, white, and thus unconsciously prefer to draw white characters, or are just better at it? Maybe then we need more black ARTISTS in the business and it will fix itself.
    LOL. REALLY?

    And where are these black artists who draw/paint supposed to come from? The massive pool of black people who are into the inclusive world of RPG's? People on these boards and others have talked ad nauseum about how art in RPG's is important and having images that are inclusive is part of that.

    Im pretty sure that there is a large segment of the RPG population that wishes that things would go back to the AD&D days of all white people all the time but that's only going to bring in more white males. Unless that's the intent?

    White artists CAN draw and depict people of different races. HELL, THEYRE DOING IT NOW.

    Youre telling me that it's more feasible for a white artist to draw a dragon, a hobgoblin or a GELATINOUS CUBE than it would be for them to draw another human being of a different race? I think youre selling these artists short, by like, ALOT.

  9. #79
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    On the one hand, I think REH was pretty racist.
    On the other hand,

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinHakkaider View Post
    Being that this hobby is made up primarily of White Males I'm not at all surprised at some of the responses to this
    is not nice.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewJeffCT View Post
    However, I do think continuing to exclude non-white humans from the art could hurt D&D when it comes to expanding the reach of the game beyond a white male audience.
    Just depict some human male warriors (white or not) who aren't being killed or petrified Regdar-style, and I'm happy! I think Paizo's Iconic black human female Paladin looks great*, but I also appreciate that they have Valeros the human male Fighter, and he's not treated like dirt by the artists.

    *Reminds me of Zana Than, my Sarcosan PC in a Midnight campaign.
    Last edited by S'mon; Thursday, 23rd February, 2012 at 05:33 PM.

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