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Tuesday, 28th February, 2012, 02:18 AM #101
Acolyte (Lvl 2)
Meh. Mage hands and floating discs are fun, non-combat abilities that spellcasters should get for free. Burning a feat on these mild spells would sting.
I also don't see much merit to Vancian magic other than its historical roots in the game. If D&D never had this type of magic, and someone were to pitch fire-and-forget spells as the core system of magic, I doubt many would want it. Magic should be so much cooler.
Maybe . . .
- Casting spells is physically taxing. Wizards must balance their stamina, while always having the option to push themselves closer to exhaustion to cast a few more spells before they rest.
- Spells are weaved together on the spot based on a Wizards knowledge of the magical traditions. More complex spells take longer to cast or are more likely to misfire.
- Spells are gained by bargaining with powerful planar creatures. Using the most powerful spells indebts the wizard a favor to these beings.
- Magical energy is drawn from the shadow realm, and casting spells has a chance of drawing the attention of or summoning vengeful undead.
- Or spellcasters simply have a pool of mana to manage throughout the day (or encounter, or turn).
Let's see something to get excited about!
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Tuesday, 28th February, 2012, 02:36 AM #102
Spellbinder (Lvl 16)
This was the fundamental basic thing that killed 2e and turned it into a giant mess. There were all sorts of options, but there was no rational organization to them whatsoever.
Tuesday, 28th February, 2012, 03:06 AM #103
Myrmidon (Lvl 10)
Was not the Wilderness Survival Guide the 1e book which introduced NWPs in 1986? And didn't the Unearthed Arcana introduce Weapon Proficiencies in 1985? So, while AD&D didn't have feats, it did have "skills" for most of its run. (14 years with, and 9 years without)
So, of the editions, only OD&D (3 years) and Basic didn't have some kind of skills/proficiencies. So either 2/6 or 2/9 versions lack "skills" (depending on how you count the 2e "Option"s, 3.5 and Essentials.) I think having some kind of basic resolution system for skills makes quite a bit of sense as part of the "core" of D&D.
Tuesday, 28th February, 2012, 03:07 AM #104
Lama (Lvl 13)
If I can switch off feats entirely and switch on Vanceian magic, then I'm OK with this...whatever.
Now, when I say switch off, I mean OFF as in just say "those things aren't included" fullstop. Not "now I must rewrite how characters are handled" because I could make 4e into AD&D using such a method. Doesn't mean I wanna go through the effort. (And I don't, and I won't.)
Then it's not a dealbreaker.
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Parenthetically, photostat copies of the manuscript rules were made, and when the commercial game was published, fans not willing or financially unable to expend the princely sum of $10 for the product did likewise, copying the material on school (mainly college/university) machines. We were well aware of this, and many gamers who had spent their hard-earned money to buy the game were more irate than we were. In all, though, the 'pirate' material was more helpful that not. Many new fans were made by DMs who were using such copies to run their games. - Gary Gygax
Tuesday, 28th February, 2012, 03:12 AM #105
Magsman (Lvl 14)
But when I said all adventurous PC should be competent at combat, some look at me funny. But that is a thought for another day.
To the real topic.
D&D has added many different methods of cast spells over the years. It only makes sense that they should be many different systems. You can make a club out of stone, wood, or iron but each uses a different method of crafting.
My homebrew world has many types of casting. A person can weave the design of a spell's fabric into the their mind and complete the pattern a the time of casting like a wizard. Or they can spontaneously force absorbed latent magic through the patterns imprinted in their blood like a sorcerer. Or have a deity or nature implant the spell pattern in their brains like clerics and druids. An arcanist can also snatch loose magic thread out the air and fire out a minor spell on the spot at-will.
My beard is hairy.
Tuesday, 28th February, 2012, 03:14 AM #106
Acolyte (Lvl 2)
I've come to the conclusion that 4E half Vancian magic was a mistake. They need to either go all Vancian or not at all. I really hate the idea that some characters in the group are managing daily resources while others are not. It creates 15 minute adventuring days and inept wizards shooting crossbows. And because the Vancian Mage had a different power curve, they needed the other PCs to survive the early levels before dominating the later levels. This is how the sweet spot was created in the first place. Why reintroduce legacy problems when you don't need them?
Respect the narrative! Tame the plot!
My SWSE Campaign
Tuesday, 28th February, 2012, 03:14 AM #107
The Grand Druid (Lvl 20)
It does raise the question of how NPCs will be handled in published products, which modular options will be in use by default. If an NPC is built using particular options and there's no equivalent option that handles the same abilities, this might get a bit tricky, particularly in regard to what level of PC group that NPC can challenge (assuming it is an NPC that would be at odds with the PCs for whatever reasons).
Tuesday, 28th February, 2012, 03:14 AM #108
Thaumaturgist (Lvl 9)
IE. no feat choices, but still feat-effects baked into the classes instead?
The advantage with that system is that it allows AD&D style characters to be relatively balanced with feat-based characters.
Would you approve?
It can also be applied to skills. Baked-in skills would be something like a +1/+2 basic competency bonus to all skill rolls, except when there's a specific class bonus, while actual skill choices would remove the basic competency, keeping things reasonably close to balanced.
Last edited by Kingreaper; Tuesday, 28th February, 2012 at 03:18 AM.
Tuesday, 28th February, 2012, 03:18 AM #109
The Grand Druid (Lvl 20)
Even setting aside my personal dislike of the Vancian mechanic, I want to see mechanical diversity among the classes in 5E. Vancian casting cannot possibly be the only way to create strategy-focused classes with an element of resource management.
There is no fluff. There is no crunch. There are only rules of varying precision.
Tuesday, 28th February, 2012, 03:24 AM #110
A 1e title so awesome it's not in the book (Lvl 21)
Sure, but lots of folks are, and, given that that's one of the big divisive issues of 4e, I can't imagine them forcing you to use vancian fighters in 5e, if they exist.Originally Posted by Dasuul
All I'm sayin' is that there should be lots of different resource management mechanics for lots of different classes, and they don't all have to be wizards or spellcasters to use different resource management mechanics.
Last edited by Kamikaze Midget; Tuesday, 28th February, 2012 at 02:15 PM.
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