L&L: Putting the Vance in Vancian

Odhanan

Adventurer
This is the core of what's wrong with D&D. WOTC catering to people who didn't like D&D to begin with and making it an entirely new game. Nothing wrong with Runequest or any of the other games you mention - I'm a big Warhammer fan - but I want my D&D to be D&D.

Ditto. I love and play a wide variety of games myself. Stormbringer, Hawkmoon, In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas, Nephilim, Scales, Mythus, LA, RuneQuest, Pendragon, Traveller, Shadowrun, Gamma World, Hurlements, Star Wars d6, RoleMaster, nearly all the World of Darkness games... my favorite games of all time include Call of Cthulhu and Vampire the Masquerade/the Requiem (along with, you guessed it, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, First Edition, pre-Unearthed Arcana).

When I want to play D&D, I want "D&D". I always loved D&D. I don't want D&D to become "something else". I already play with dozens of different games for occasions when I want to play "something else".
 

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paladinm

First Post
I still prefer a more spontaneous/sorcerer-type of casting. In the olden days, "preparing" a spell was called "memorizing", and it didn't make sense to me for a mage to "forget" a spell once it's cast. It makes more sense to have a bunch of spells "memorized", but to be limited to a certain number of slots. I guess this is just a step on the way to a completely points-based system, but it works for me.

It also allows dragons, demons, angels, and even orcs to be spellcasters. Would dragons really be "memorizing" spells from a spellbook? And I don't think most orcs can read.

Spontaneous casting is the way to go!
 



This is the core of what's wrong with D&D. WOTC catering to people who didn't like D&D to begin with and making it an entirely new game. Nothing wrong with Runequest or any of the other games you mention - I'm a big Warhammer fan - but I want my D&D to be D&D. WOTC could give us multiple games to make everyone happy, but instead of choosing to play football or baseball, I'm afraid we'll be getting a football bat.

Agree 100%
 

Rogue Agent

First Post
Has never worked in the past?

I'll give you one game that used this business model in the past. It had a simple core, playable in any number of ways. It had three classes, all weapons did d6 damage, some methodologies to build your dungeon and your wilderness settings. It was entirely contained in three booklets of around 36-42 pages each.

You're conveniently forgetting the part where your hypothetical 5E could simultaneously be several different games often with completely incompatible gameplay. OD&D didn't do that. And it's specifically that kind of multi-system / dual-statting support (which is what you'd effectively need) that has failed time and time again in the RPG industry.

As I've said before: I get that you really, really, really, really want 5E to be OD&D with all the stuff you don't like pushed off into an unsupported supplement where you can ignore it. But it's fairly clear that it's not going to be.

However, a Fighter who has gone on to become a Thief and thence a Bard (the first prestige class; and it was a bad idea then, too) is not just a Fighter any more, making the comparison pointless.

But at that point you're just saying that you prefer one form of customization vs. a different form of customization. Which is, of course, perfectly OK. But it's a very different claim.

The OD&D rules Cyclopedia had things like Paladin and Druid (and several others) being classes that were entered after getting to name level.

As others have pointed out OD&D != Rules Cyclopedia. I cited 1985 because I thought it was the year that both the BECMI Companion added druids/paladins and the year that UA added NWPs. But a quick review indicates that the BECMI stuff was actually 1984. So call it 1984-1985.

4E is d20 at its core. All you got to do is find a way to emulate 4E by using the OGL/SRD itself while not infringing on WotC's copyright (which means some terms would not be used and replaced and so on). Which is totally possible, and has been done as you know with the other editions of the game (retroclones).

It's a very different kettle of fish: 3E streamlined the core of the game (while keeping most of the math the same), but left most of the ancillary stuff (monster descriptions; spell descriptions; etc.) intact. The ancillary stuff is the stuff most likely to be protected by copyright, so the OGL gave the retro-clones the ability to re-apply the original core mechanics (the stuff that explicitly can't be copyrighted) and run with it.

4th Edition, OTOH, kept the core mechanics of 3E but changed everything else. The difficulty and legality of making a retro-clone of 4E that's acutally compatible with 4E (as opposed to just having some similar gameplay with radically different classes, powers, monsters, etc.) is much, much higher.
 

Incenjucar

Legend
This is the core of what's wrong with D&D. WOTC catering to people who didn't like D&D to begin with and making it an entirely new game. Nothing wrong with Runequest or any of the other games you mention - I'm a big Warhammer fan - but I want my D&D to be D&D. WOTC could give us multiple games to make everyone happy, but instead of choosing to play football or baseball, I'm afraid we'll be getting a football bat.

It's the unfortunate economic reality. There just isn't enough money in it for Hasbro for everyone to get a fully-supported game.
 

Andor

First Post
While I'm all for having multiple magic systems in the game, the approach mentioned seems like a bad plan.

Consider, if the Vancian style spells are intended to be the wizbang with feat magic as the at-will but less powerful staple then either:

The feat-spells are gimped and the 'sorcerer' is the 'wizards' lackey at best, OR the feat-spells are on par with the vancian spells but since they are feats the wizards can take them too and the 'sorcerer' is still 2nd best to the 'wizard' who is, at worst, less flexible with his at will in exchange for the much greater flexibility of vancian spells!

Sucks to be the Sorcerer.

Now, there are ways to work around this but they all have obvious flaws. Frex the good feat-magics have class and level prerequisites that prevent the vancian casters from getting them. Flaw, this is exactly analagous to the 'fighter only' feats from 3e and it was annoying then. Not a good plan to carry forward.

Alternately the 'Sorcerer' class gets class related bonuses to his at-wills but then you have potential problems with multi-classing and dipping.

I think for a non-vancian caster you want his spells to be class features, not general feats. Whether this works like a 3e sorcerer, or some other method (and I can think of lots of them) doesn't matter, what matters is that he gets a pool the wizard cannot drink from. And vice-versa of course.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
What I can tell you is that for me OD&D and AD&D work with a certain mindset. To me AD&D is all about circumstances and Ad Hoc uses of the rules. It's about the DM/referee making rulings and having different rules and separate sub-systems at his fingertips, as incongruous as they might seem compared to one another within the same book (the DMG), working as many examples helping him run the game and come to his own decisions as the campaign proceeds. The DM considers each of these elements carefully between games, reading through the material, thinking about what Gary's telling him in his own voice via the DMG and coming to decisions on his own based on this. He can take each subsystem and use it or leave it. This why the rules feel like some sort of "disjointed Chinese buffet" from your standpoint. It's because it really is the case. From my standpoint, it's not the point. The rules are not the point. The game itself is the point. Circumstances and variables in actual play are the point. I pick and choose to make the game work via common sense and adjudication. I am the master of the game.
Yes, I eventually worked out that "guided freeform" was the way most people played D&D, but by then I had found other systems I still think do this better (Theatrix for 'guided freeform', HârnMaster for 'select your sub-system', for example - all just personal taste, of course).

This is the core of what's wrong with D&D. WOTC catering to people who didn't like D&D to begin with and making it an entirely new game. Nothing wrong with Runequest or any of the other games you mention - I'm a big Warhammer fan - but I want my D&D to be D&D. WOTC could give us multiple games to make everyone happy, but instead of choosing to play football or baseball, I'm afraid we'll be getting a football bat.
I agree. I have said here before that in many ways I wish 4E had been produced as something named other than "D&D". That way I would be able to enjoy a very fine game without the constant griping of the haters. Sadly, due to the inane vagaries and peccadillos of the way modern corporations manage their IP that would probably mean having many elements renamed, but that would be a relatively small price to pay.
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
I agree. I have said here before that in many ways I wish 4E had been produced as something named other than "D&D". That way I would be able to enjoy a very fine game without the constant griping of the haters. Sadly, due to the inane vagaries and peccadillos of the way modern corporations manage their IP that would probably mean having many elements renamed, but that would be a relatively small price to pay.

I'd buy this more if the people always trying to don the mantle of "High Priest of What D&D Is" were not universally set on telling me that what I did with D&D in the early days did not happen. It smacks more of agenda than any real interest in the health of the hobby. And of course, D&D didn't invent branding.
 

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