L&L: Putting the Vance in Vancian

Truename · Feb 27, 2012

I'm getting the impression that feats are the main avenue for character customization in 5e, sort of like powers were in 4e, and that there are going to be a lot of feat slots, most of which will be taken up by default in out-of-the-box builds.

I'm imagining feats being used for things as diverse as Vancian spell slots, 4e-style powers, psionic power points, racial powers, class features a la 4e, skill training, and pretty much every major customization option.

Kingreaper · Feb 27, 2012

Truename said:
I'm imagining feats being used for things as diverse as Vancian spell slots, 4e-style powers, psionic power points, racial powers, class features a la 4e, skill training, and pretty much every major customization option.

If they actually do use feats for vancian spell slots, then I can see the game working with every class being feat-based.

If they do what 3e did, and treat feats and spells as totally seperate things, then I can see it going exactly as it did with the 3.x fighter v wizard issue.

So I'm really hoping you're right on this one.

FireLance · Feb 27, 2012

Savage Wombat said:
It also brings back the issue of combat balance and non-combat balance. If I'm using a feat for mage hand that another player is using for extra combat damage, we have the gimping problem again.

It really depends on what proportion of a character's total effectiveness comes from feats. If it's around 20%, then the difference in effectiveness between a character who has spent all his feats on combat power and one who has spent all his feats on non-combat utility is about 20%, which is close enough to "not gimped" in my book.

If it's around 40%, then the issue would be what the default options are. A player who decides to customize his character ought to ensure that he knows the likely consequences of what he is doing.

Kobold Avenger · Feb 27, 2012

Between Pathfinder and 4e, I feel that Wizards and other types of magical characters should get something like Mage Hand and Prestidigitation as something that can be used at will. It makes them feel more magical, even if it's back to using crossbows, because they never picked a magical attack feat.

GM Dave · Feb 27, 2012

From the article, I see a discussion going on of several different magical classes.

1> Simplified Wizard that is all power selections (all Wizard Marks). You choose Magic Missile and can do it all the time and it gets bigger and better as you level. A 3e Warlock or Sorcerer taken to the extreme type of idea.

2> Standard Wizard with Vancian spell slots and the ability to add to those spell slots with other Wizard Marks.

3> Wizard of 4e variety. This appears in a couple of the poll choices and seems it might be an optional speculation. Who knows, they may give some sort of trade off idea that you can swap some of your daily slots for encounter slots to re-create the feel of a 4e wizard.

4> Point system Wizard? Again this appears in the polls and might be a pull from the psionic system of 4e (speculation but I think this was the first point system of 'magic' that I found tolerable and not broken).

5> Sorcerer in the 3e style. A limited repertoire of spells but you can cast them more often and do not need to prepare in advance. This might come off as something more like the essential line of classes where the encounter ability is allowed to be use several times per day depending on your level.

Oh, and I expect to get more Wizard, Sorcerer, and Warlock discussions this week. Likely, we'll get the compulsory 'gish' poll as one of the topics this week.

UngeheuerLich · Feb 27, 2012

It sounds as if feats are different from 3e or 4e feats.
It really sounds as if they have a big impact. Not some small numerical bonus.

Vancian means: You may have a spellbook with 100s of spells and you need to know what lies ahead to fully utilize them.
And having 100s of spells from which to pick is my favourite system. Chosing spells carefully. Spreading your slots on defensive, offensive and utility spells. This is something I really miss in 4e´s aedu and 3e´s bard and sorcerer like system.

It is what the D&D wizard is all about.

But I am very pleased if all types of casting will be present in 5e
So I voted 5 on all polls and chose vancian as my favourite.

Fede · Feb 27, 2012

"And according to a recent poll here, a majority of you seem to agree—that we should incude both Vancian and non-Vancian spellcasting systems as part of the core."

Maybe I'm just cynical, maybe I'm seeing what I was already expecting to see, but this to me is exactly what I (and other people) was suspecting about polls being more designed to justify an already taken decision than to gather data.

Also, did anyobody notice the link to the follow up survey hidden in the last two lines under the polls? For me it isn't working, it is sending me to an empty page.

EDIT: uh, it looks like the survey is the same that was linked last week. maybe it is linking to a blank page because I have already done it. At first glance I thought it was a second part to last week's one.

Kynn · Feb 27, 2012

Fede said:
"And according to a recent poll here, a majority of you seem to agree—that we should incude both Vancian and non-Vancian spellcasting systems as part of the core."

Maybe I'm just cynical, maybe I'm seeing what I was already expecting to see, but this to me is exactly what I (and other people) was suspecting about polls being more designed to justify an already taken decision than to gather data.

It's not just you.

(Also, note that they never asked, "should we include both Vancian and non-Vancian spellcasting systems as part of the core?" so he can't really claim that "a majority" of us want that.)

PS: Here's my obligatory poll comment:

Wow these polls continue to be poorly written.

Khaalis · Feb 27, 2012

Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound as a permanent pet/familiar for the win!

Serendipity · Feb 27, 2012

Yawn. Crappy poll, semi-coherent article (the subject of which doesn't really arouse strong feelings in me one way or the other).
IOW, same as preceding weeks. I have to say, at this point, it's all just turning to white noise until I see some actual playtest docs. It's kind of sad that the initial curiosity I had when this was announced is rapidly degenerating into a kind of mild disinterest.
Possibly though, I just need to go to bed and see this with fresh eyes in the morning.