L&L: Putting the Vance in Vancian

mkill · Feb 27, 2012

"Monte reinvents 4E by dumping on the feat system what should be class features; because that kind of thing worked so marvellously for the 3E fighter"

At least that's how I read it.

I don't know... These articles don't read like the work of someone who's been around since the dawn of the game and published tons of books, but rather someone who just stepped off a spaceship and asks questions like "what is this thing called d20?" I hope it's just an issue of communication skills.

Hassassin · Feb 27, 2012

I have only two concerns with giving Vancian wizards at-will abilities from feats.

Firstly, there must be a reason wizards mostly use spells to channel their magic. It could be that at-will magic is weaker, or that it has some sort of disadvantage (my preference), but there should be some reason that is reflected in the mechanics.

Secondly, it shouldn't be a feat tax. Wizards without at-will magical feats should be viable. This means at least that weapons wizards can use (darts, crossbows, quarterstaffs, what have you) must be almost as effective in combat.

Will Doyle · Feb 27, 2012

I'm slightly confused about the feat thing too, but I'm guessing (or rather, hoping) that the wizard gets access to x number of metamagic feats on top of some generic allocation. Perhaps all classes are the same? Extra martial feats for the fighter, stealth feats for the thief, etc.

RangerWickett said:
Then you'd have an ability, Draw Mana, which would let you spend a standard action to gain 1 mana, but you'd have to spend it within 5 minutes or else it would fade away.

To keep this from being boring (i.e., you only cast a spell every other turn), maybe the act of drawing mana makes you imposing like Gandalf when he intimidates Bilbo early in Fellowship, causing creatures nearby you to take a penalty to attack rolls for a turn. Or maybe a fire mage who draws mana could deal minor fire damage in a close burst, as fire swirls around him dramatically. Different types of wizards would have different minor effects that occur when they draw mana.

That's a damned cool idea!

Khaalis · Feb 27, 2012

Hassassin said:
Firstly, there must be a reason wizards mostly use spells to channel their magic. It could be that at-will magic is weaker, or that it has some sort of disadvantage (my preference), but there should be some reason that is reflected in the mechanics.

Basically these spells would be Cantrips that can be cast without cost. As per how Fantasy Craft did their spells. e.g. They use Vancian spell levels 0-9 but use Spell Points rather than memorized spell slots. In that system Cantrips don't cost spell points but require a DC 13 Spellcasting check.

I think this system works fine so long as they spells are balanced. For instance the 0-Level combat spells deals 1d6 cold (REF half).

Hassassin said:
Secondly, it shouldn't be a feat tax. Wizards without at-will magical feats should be viable. This means at least that weapons wizards can use (darts, crossbows, quarterstaffs, what have you) must be almost as effective in combat.

Agreed. I am not keen on the Feat tax for a wizard to have an at-will attack of some sort that is effective.

delericho · Feb 27, 2012

If 5e feats are anything like 3e/4e feats (that is, you get a very limited number, and there are feats for a huge range of things), then turning spells like Tenser's Floating Disk into feats won't breathe any new life into them. There will always be something better to spend those feats on instead.

IMO, 4e had the right approach: give your spellcaster a bunch of limited spells (either a combination of At-Will/Encounter/Daily, or only Daily spells, depending on what flavour of Wizard you want), and then turn all the miscellaneous other spells into Rituals that can be cast by anyone with the training and the resources.

The reason Rituals were so sorely under-used in 4e was that they were just too damn costly to use. But surely it's not beyond the wit of men to fix that?

And, indeed, the worst thing about feats in 3e and 4e was that they try to cover far too much ground in that one element. Adding yet more to the ground that feats have to cover is a bad idea.

The sooner they get that playtest started, the better.

underfoot007ct · Feb 27, 2012

After reading this, I am very hopeful. Especially If these feats will let a player choose to build a Caster character either 1E, 2E, 3E, 4E style (or even some new point style). Which could make almost every happy, no matter which style you prefer.

.

Baumi · Feb 27, 2012

I would rather like to get rid of all those daily resources because they cause some unnecessary problems. IMHO At-Will and Encounter only (with the occasionaly Ritual) would work great.

The biggest problem is that balance is nearly impossible, since the difficulty of an Adventure is changed drastically by how many encounters per day you are having (Adventures that goes over mutlible days or weeks are extremely hard to balance since they can spend ALL resources on a single fight).

This also forces either the 15 min Adventure-workday since the players would be stupid to fight on when they have no big-spells/powers left or the heroes will not use their Spells until the big endfight which is quite boring. You can overcome this clever Designed Adventures but it will feel forced if you use that to often.

If they still want very limited resources then they should rather use an Adventure/Session limit instead of daily, so you can have Dungeonhacks or Travelquests and still have the same balance. But I would still rather prefer At-Will and Encounter Powers..

Minigiant · Feb 27, 2012

It seems that they are going with the spellslot caster as the default with feats granting at-will and encounter spells..

This gives me a few ideas how certain classes could be made.

Wizard: Prepared Vancian slot user with Arcane mark featss to gain minor or less powerful effects.
Sorcerer: Spontaneous Vancian slot user with Arcane mark feats to gain minor or less powerful effects.
Bard: Spontaneous Vancian slot user who can sing songs and spend song points to enhance their limited spells.
Cleric & Druid: Prepared Vancian slot user with ability to spontaneously switch certain spells based on deity.
Priest: Prepared Vancian slot user with Divine blessings feats to gain minor or less powerful effects.
Paladin & Ranger: Non spellcaster who can take Divine Blessings with feats
Assassin: Non spellcaster who qualities for certain arcane mark feats
Warlock: Noncaster who gets free Arcane Mark feats and more powerful versions of Arcane Marks Invocations.

sinecure · Feb 27, 2012

Please ditch the nonexistent Combat/Non-combat divide. Just have all the stuff that is possible in combat possible outside of combat too without quick-time restrictions.

Also, please ditch feats and another list of powers or even pseudo-powers. I don't even know what feats are supposed to be in the system. Making feats mandatory would be a major problem for those of us who don't want to use them. How do we get wizards who cast non-combat spells at-will with no feat system, if that's the only way?

shawnsse · Feb 27, 2012

I feel Vancian magic works fine but need some modification.

How about making 0 and 1st level spell At Will, 2nd level spell Per Encounter and 3rd level & above spell Per Day.

Looking at the 3.5E spell per day progression, with the above modification, it works like 4E w/e/d progression.

Need to move some 1st and 2nd level spell to 3rd level so make them Per Day.

Work well for my game.