Medieval Equipment VS D&D Equipment

Kaodi · Mar 2, 2012

For the sake of argument, if you were looking to run a campaign that featured a list of arms and equipment that conformed to 1100 AD, what would you have to cut out?

I am no expert, but I do not think that plate armour or longbows would have been available at this time, and maybe not heavy crossbows. Probably not repeating crossbows at the very least. No half-plate, and arguably no longsword; you can either use a shortsword, or you can burn a feat to wield a bastardsword in one hand. Most double weapons are out, and a lost list of non-combat equipment does not exist yet (especially if you are using Pathfinder).

Feel free to correct any of those examples. I just used them to give an idea of what I am looking for.

Another related topic that could perhaps be discussed, or spun off into another thread: what spells would you need to eliminate in order to make slow technological process more believable? With some divinations, you would think that it could advance amazingly quickly, for instance.

Stormonu · Mar 2, 2012

Trying to do this from memory...

Full plate (Maximilian plate), I believe, is late 1400's. Half-plate (what D&D terms plate mail) may be 1200's. I do know that chain mail was available at least during the time of Charlemagne (I've done a smattering of research on the 700's-800's). I think bronze plate (with a breastplate, greaves, gauntlets and a chain hauberk and leggings) may have been used back during Roman times, but perhaps only by commanders and it's use did not carry over into the Dark Ages.

If I'm remembering correctly, Agincourt - where the longbow came into prominence, was in the 1200's - but that doesn't mean they weren't available before then. Again, if I'm remembering correctly, the French were using crossbows in that battle, and it's use was pretty standard.

The 2E Arms & Equipment guide, as well as the green historical guides had a pretty good list of equipment that was available by time period.

Meatboy · Mar 2, 2012

I dunno a quick perusal of wikipedia (not the most accurate of info I know :S) kind of makes me think that the standard equipment list is fairly accurate for medieval times. There are long swords in essence, if not name. Crossbows seem to have been around for centuries before the middle ages doesn't seem out of line to figure that a mechanical assisted crossbow would be around, though I couldn't find specific examples.

If things should be excluded I'd say rapier, repeating crossbow, most monk weapons and maybe Full plate. The equipment list has been one of the few things (in terms of weapons and armor at least) that hasn't change much over the years. The true geekiness, at least in terms of attention to detail, of Gygax and Arnesson as well as their war gamer roots show through when you look at the stuff they chose to equip their PCs with. They more than likely did a bit of research. Looking back at the wiki on Medieval warfare the equipment list reads eerily similar to what one finds in the equipment section of the players handbook.

Celebrim · Mar 2, 2012

Kaodi said:
For the sake of argument, if you were looking to run a campaign that featured a list of arms and equipment that conformed to 1100 AD, what would you have to cut out?

Things that don't yet exist.

Halberd: Similar polearms existed (voulge), but final form is a 14th century variant.
Spetum: Variants (ranseur) exist into antiquity, but appears in the 13th century.
Bardiche: Appears probably in the 13th century.
Bastard Sword: The historical 'long sword' is the D&D bastard sword. What is called the longsword is in fact an arming or war sword and is current in the 12th century.
Rapier/Small Sword/Cut and Thrust Sword: No early than the 16th century
War Hammer/Military Pick: Developed in response to plate. Not seen really before the 13th century.
Bec de Corbin/Lucerne Hammer: Another weapon developed in response to plate.
Estoc: Another anti-plate weapon. Dates to the 14th century.
Two-Handed Sword/Greatsword/Claymore: Dates to the 14th century or possibly late 13th, though not really common until Pikes are again deployed in numbers in the 15th century.
Morningstar: May have been known earlier, but doesn't appear to be in widespread use until the 14th century. Earlier weapons should be treated as maces.
Flail: Agricultural tools have been improvised as weapons since antiquity, but purpose built war flails don't seem to have been used until the 14th century.

Obselete/Forgotten
Falx, Pike, Rhomphaia, Khopesh, Sling(?)

The sling was the longbow of its day. It's still probably known in the middle ages, but to be employed as a military weapon you require a large population trained in the weapon since practically birth. Even in antiquity, you pretty much could only field slingers if you could levy or hire troops from Sicily or Judea, much as throughout European history, you could pretty much only field longbows if you could levy troops from Wales and adjacent parts of England. The pike required professional heavy infantry, which really doesn't exist in this period.

Armors

Bronze Plate refers to the Greek style heavy armor used by Hoplites. It's not in use in the middle ages.
Brigandine: Not really used in Europe until after contacts with the Mongols in the 13th century.
Plate: 13th century.
Banded: Known to antiquity 'lorica segmentata', articulated plates aren't used in 12th century Europe

Fantasy Weapons
Spiked Chain, Double Bladed Sword, Dire Flail, etc.

Loonook · Mar 2, 2012

Meatboy said:
If things should be excluded I'd say rapier, repeating crossbow, most monk weapons and maybe Full plate. The equipment list has been one of the few things (in terms of weapons and armor at least) that hasn't change much over the years. The true geekiness, at least in terms of attention to detail, of Gygax and Arnesson as well as their war gamer roots show through when you look at the stuff they chose to equip their PCs with. They more than likely did a bit of research. Looking back at the wiki on Medieval warfare the equipment list reads eerily similar to what one finds in the equipment section of the players handbook.

Chu-ke nu have been around for some time... Plate was used by the Romans but was abandoned due to difficulty in its production with available resources. Rapiers were only not made during the time because they are what they are: Thrusting weapons with guards to protect during lightly-armored combat in an era when we had gotten away from plate.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

gamerprinter · Mar 2, 2012

Just basing the following on the Bayeux Tapestry, that depicts the story of William and Harold, as well as the Battle of Hastings, 1066 - as a good source of weapons information (and close to the timeline you seek).

Crossbows were used by the Normans (King Harold was killed by a crossbow bolt to the eye). The long bow also appears in the tapestry on the side of the English. Javelins were also used as depicted in the tapestry.

Lances, battleaxe, swords (blade length equivalent to long sword) were the most common melee weapons. Duke William bears a mace at Hastings, in the tapestry.

Armor was primarily coats of chain mail, nasaled helmets and large tear-drop shields (perhaps comparable to tower shields, as it extends from the eye to the foot in length). While the English bore medium round shields (targe shields).

With the defeat of the English by mostly Norman cavalry, the English Shield Wall defense ends at the Battle of Hastings - so infantry with shield wall tactics disappears before the 12th century.

Dannyalcatraz · Mar 2, 2012

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Jhaelen · Mar 2, 2012

Kaodi said:
For the sake of argument, if you were looking to run a campaign that featured a list of arms and equipment that conformed to 1100 AD, what would you have to cut out?

I think you'd have to decide on a region/setting first.

If you're only thinking about Europe, I'd look at Ars Magica's lists, although that's set slightly later (1180-1220 depending on edition).

In an Asian setting I suspect a completely different selection of items, armor, and weapons would be available.

Dannyalcatraz · Mar 2, 2012

Weapons: An International Encyclopedia From 5000 B.C. to 2000 A.D., Updated Edition:Amazon:Books

This book does a nice job of breaking down weapons by period AND region.

Meatboy · Mar 2, 2012

Loonook said:
Chu-ke nu have been around for some time... Plate was used by the Romans but was abandoned due to difficulty in its production with available resources. Rapiers were only not made during the time because they are what they are: Thrusting weapons with guards to protect during lightly-armored combat in an era when we had gotten away from plate.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

Yes they have. I'm not saying these things didn't or couldn't exist at that time. I was under the impression that the OP was looking for a list of equipment that adheres as closely as possible to what would be found in the real world early middle ages Europe.

That means Lorica Segmetata has fallen by the wayside, along with other Roman innovations, the Lorica Hamata however, a chain mail shirt derived from earlier non roman invention, found new life throughout the age.
The repeating crossbow is an Asian weapon and unless their is a special circumstance then PCs in the campaign would not have access to it.