The Knight card from the Deck of Many Things

scott2978 · Mar 7, 2012

Ok, so in my campaign 2 characters drew this card, both druids. We already have a large group, so I want to do something different with this so as to keep the stress of playing multiple characters down for both me and the players. I personally like to let the players play their own cohorts/animal companions/etc.

So the Knight card says:

"Knight: The fighter appears out of nowhere and serves loyally until death. He or she is of the same race (or kind) and gender as the character."

It says nothing about how they advance, if at all. Are they a cohort? Do they remain a 4th level fighter forever?

Some considerations:

There are already 9 characters and only 6 players. I do not want any more NPC's traveling with the group.
Drawing from the deck is a very dangerous act, and the rewards should equal the risks. I want this draw to be something the players enjoy that is fun.
I don't want the result to be unbalancing, at least not in a big way.
Both the drawing PC's were druids with animal companions.
One of the druids has taken levels in the Master of Many Forms PrC from Complete Adventurer. This Prc does not stack with levels of Druid for purposes of Animal Companions. The player is likely to take it all the way to level 10.
The other druid is a multiclass druid 4/wizard 3/arcane heriophant 1. Her animal companion will always be 4 levels behind a normal druid.

I asked the players what they want from this. The MMF suggested an Awakened animal. Now I know those can't serve as Animal Companions, but what if this 4HD fighter was combined with her Animal Companion and treated like a Cohort? Permanantly giving up her animal companion eliminates one extra NPC, and making the new creature a Cohort means it can advance with her and gain levels. Is this unbalanced?

The other just wants it to be the equivalent of increasing her druid level by 4 (for purposes of her Animal Companion only) instead of giving her a 4th level fighter, sort of like "Practiced Animal Companion" (a play-on-words from the feat "Practiced Spellcaster").

What do you guys think? I am inclined to allow them, but I just wanted to take a poll and see where I am in the great wheel of DM's.

anest1s · Mar 7, 2012

No way. A 4th level fighter won't even be useful in battle. I would just make him a mindless/mute guy, obeying every order of the PC.

Also, you could give their animal companions a "knight" form...like a reverse lycanthrope or something.

Nebten · Mar 7, 2012

I would start killing off charcters. That 4th level "whateveritis" will be a bit more useful. Espically if he's all blinged out in the dead character's gear.

Honestly, eleven 10+ level characters? How long are those combats?

trancejeremy · Mar 7, 2012

This is one of those things that perhaps did not translate well into 3rd edition...when it was created, you were expected to have a host of henchmen...and probably a stronghold, or at least a really, really nice wagon with shag carpet where you could stash your extra guys.

I would just give their animal companions 4 extra HD (spread over them). Although I always presumed they could (the 4th level fighter) gain levels, so you could always do that, too, let the critter gain them as part of the deal.

frankthedm · Mar 7, 2012

Nebten said:
I would start killing off charcters

I suspect that was why the OP delt out The Deck.

Li Shenron · Mar 7, 2012

It's a tough case IMHO...

Frankly, I wouldn't change what the Deck has made happen, to me that would kind of defeating the purpose of having it in the game...

OTOH I don't think it would be unbalanced to exchange the animal companion with a cohort, at least because you could have a cohort just for the cost of a feat (Leadership) although the level may differ.

And of course your situation with so many characters is already making the game difficult to run.

Perhaps I'd just really handle this a bit strictly and go with the 4th level Fighters. In combat they will be useless, except if you use them as meatshield/scapegoats also for example to trigger traps (but notice that usually I've always thought that the Knights granted by the Deck were supposed to be supernatural, not real people but more like arcane creations, which means there is no moral problem to use them like this), or alternatively use them for non-combat situations only (to guard their homes/groves, to deliver messages, to act as decoy etc...). I don't think this particular card was meant to be that good after all!

Lwaxy · Mar 7, 2012

Nebten said:
Honestly, eleven 10+ level characters? How long are those combats?

We have 13 players with 13 main characters each in one of my campaigns. Doesn't mean they all have to be in the fights all the time

As to the original question I would treat the knight like a construct, or rather, a hologram. It is just pure magic acting as if it was alive. No advancements.

kitcik · Mar 7, 2012

scott2978 said:
I asked the players what they want from this. The MMF suggested an Awakened animal. Now I know those can't serve as Animal Companions, but what if this 4HD fighter was combined with her Animal Companion and treated like a Cohort? Permanantly giving up her animal companion eliminates one extra NPC, and making the new creature a Cohort means it can advance with her and gain levels. Is this unbalanced?

The other just wants it to be the equivalent of increasing her druid level by 4 (for purposes of her Animal Companion only) instead of giving her a 4th level fighter, sort of like "Practiced Animal Companion" (a play-on-words from the feat "Practiced Spellcaster").

What do you guys think? I am inclined to allow them, but I just wanted to take a poll and see where I am in the great wheel of DM's.

trancejeremy said:
I would just give their animal companions 4 extra HD (spread over them). Although I always presumed they could (the 4th level fighter) gain levels, so you could always do that, too, let the critter gain them as part of the deal.

There are 3 kinds of cards in the deck: good, bad and indifferent (duh).

I have always thought of the 4th level fighter card as indifferent.

Giving the druids this much extra jiuce in their animal companions, in whatever form, suddenly makes the card good.

I understand the preicament you are in - you want to change the result of the card to suit your desires as DM to keep the party count down. Since it's your desires, you don't want the players to see the change as an unfair nerf on their draw, so you are trying to be nice.

You should have thought of this ahead of time and changed the card to suit your needs. Oh well.

I would suggest a very minor upgrade - give them each 1HD extra on their companion or something.

Greenfield · Mar 7, 2012

I'd treat them as "Followers", per the Leadership feat.

Followers don't gain Exp or go up in level. They might be replaced by others as the person's Leadership score increases, but that's it.

The reason I mention the above is to establish that there is precedent for there being extra characters in the party that don't gain Exp or advance in levels.

So what good are a couple of 4th level fighters in a 10+ level party? They can stand guard duty, tend the camp, fix meals on occasion or be otherwise useful. They just won't be meaningful combatants.

By running the Deck exactly as written, most of your objections go away. They don't come into play in any meaningful manner, so they don't really do much to increase the size of an already overly large party. They become useful for plot hooks, and to justify the usual hand-wave given to the mundania of adventuring life.

kitcik · Mar 7, 2012

Greenfield said:
I'd treat them as "Followers", per the Leadership feat.

Followers don't gain Exp or go up in level. They might be replaced by others as the person's Leadership score increases, but that's it.

The reason I mention the above is to establish that there is precedent for there being extra characters in the party that don't gain Exp or advance in levels.

So what good are a couple of 4th level fighters in a 10+ level party? They can stand guard duty, tend the camp, fix meals on occasion or be otherwise useful. They just won't be meaningful combatants.

By running the Deck exactly as written, most of your objections go away. They don't come into play in any meaningful manner, so they don't really do much to increase the size of an already overly large party.

First, let me say this is the right answer. Cannot XP, sorry.

Greenfield said:
They become useful for plot hooks, and to justify the usual hand-wave given to the mundania of adventuring life.

Gawds, I would give anything to draw this card in [MENTION=92305]Water Bob[/MENTION] 's Conan campaign.

The Knight card from the Deck of Many Things

Should I allow the player's ideas? (read below)

Yes, the ideas are ok and not too unbalancing.

No the ideas shouldn't be allowed.

One of the ideas is ok but the other isn't. (please explain)

scott2978

First Post

anest1s

First Post

Nebten

First Post

trancejeremy

Adventurer

frankthedm

First Post

Li Shenron

Legend

Lwaxy

Cute but dangerous

kitcik

Adventurer

Greenfield

Adventurer

kitcik

Adventurer

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