Proposal: Streamlined traits

Mowgli said:

Traits were originally introduced as a way to give a character a "hook" into an AP, when the players might have really no idea what they might want or need in their character's background in order for the GM to work them into the game. I love all of the little situational bonuses that go along with the fluff of the traits. The idea was that you choose the fluff to fit the character, and take the bonus that came along with it.

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I think this is where I start to have a hard time with dealing with traits, as well as a lot of the fluff that accompanies classes, features, etc. Personally, I tend to have a very specific idea of a character in mind, and very rarely am I able to find fluff that fits wholesale with my own conception. Traits are for me the perfect example of this: they're so specific (like the Princess trait - you have to be both royalty and a female) that I would never make use of most of them without either reskinning the fluff or mostly disregarding it (which, for better or worse, happens a lot).

I don't see Systole's proposal as a way to promote the purely mechanical aspect of traits so much as I see it as a way to allow one much freer reign in determining one's fluff. Which is a very different thing, and an important one to a player such as myself.

Don't get me wrong: what you say is totally valid, Mowgli. I just see the situation in a different light.

Mowgli said:

Are they clunky and unwieldy as written? Yep. But I still like 'em the way they are - clunky and quirky - which is the reason for my vote.

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I can't fault you for liking the clunkiness, although it's not a sentiment I share. However, I don't think that it's the best way to keep people from thinking about the mechanical benefits of traits. Rather, I believe the best way to open the field for RP is balance. If choosing between option A and option B does not significantly alter my character's effectiveness, then I can choose whatever fits RP-wise without worrying that my character is going to suck. But if option A is vastly better than option B, then I owe it to my fellow players to choose option A, or else I feel like I'm dragging the party down.

Which is why I object so strongly to Capable: Perception. Capable: Perception is hugely, insanely advantageous for classes without Perception, to the point where it practically becomes a trait tax. If that trait were available, and I built a wizard without it, I would feel guilty. I don't want my choices to be locked in like that.

For what it's worth, if given the choice between the old system and this proposed system with Capable: Perception included, I would choose the old system in a heartbeat. I'm not going to stop playing LPF if it's approved or anything, but I do believe that Capable: Perception is just that broken.

Hmmm, the Traits are really a way to help develop your character's personality and background. I think the spirit of them was with that in mind, not the munchkinism.

True, some people powergame and then write their background and develop their character with that afterwards. If the only way to get Perception in a trait is a Religion based Trait tied to certain deity in the source books, maybe that was a balance consideration.

But if the proposal were to go through, then I could see the majority of people taking it and the +2 Initiative Trait without really putting any thought into originality or true role-playing. No, I am not pointing fingers since I would do it too with some builds.

What about Disable Device? There are a few archetypes that get Trapfinding as a feature, but do NOT get Disable Device as a class skill. There is another combination that would be loop-holed with this proposal.

All of this is just food for thought, though. I find that bookkeeping is potentially more important at times. LPF is already a bit video game/powergamey with 100% buy-back on items and unrestricted high point buy for stats. So what's a little powergaming on Traits.

All things considered, I would still vote for option 2 just because it makes Character approval easier. With or without Perception.

perrinmiller said:

True, some people powergame and then write their background and develop their character with that afterwards.

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I don't think this is either/or. The ends of the spectrum are RP without any consideration for efficiency, and powergaming with rather tortuous after-the-fact justifications for character creation choices. I, for one, am in somewhere in the middle. I think that's true for most people. You make the RP best choices you can without building a gimped character.

Systole said:

I, for one, am in somewhere in the middle. I think that's true for most people. You make the RP best choices you can without building a gimped character.

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Generally I think I am too for Pathfinder. If we are correct and most people fall in the middle, then we should not have a problem with everyone taking Perception for a Trait.

I think a lot of people put ranks in it as a catch all, but it can also be considered a group skill that is not required for every player. That rogue scouting ahead with +10 in the skill is the guy that needs it to prevent the party from being surprised by that orc ambush or walking into a trap.

If I were playing a sorcerer, I would not be taking the Perception Trait. Not my character's job to be looking for things. My fighter would still take the Sense Motive one to help defend against Bluffing Feinters instead.

Let's pretend I can put a value on traits, so the total value is

50% x [fits my character's RP] + 50% x [mechanical usefulness]

Some people are going to be at different places along the spectrum: 60/40, 40/60, 95/5, etc. I'm just inventing numbers here. The problem is, when there's one or two traits where the [mechanical usefulness] is huge, then it trumps [fits my character's RP].

I personally think that the [mechanical usefulness] of Capable: Perception is huge. Not for everyone, but certain skillpoint-heavy classes *cough*wizards*cough* are going to be almost required to take this trait. And wizards already have to contend with almost being required to take the Initiative and Concentration traits.

Yeah, a wizard isn't the forward scout, but when it's all it takes to become the main group's radar, it forces them into that role to the detriment of RP.

Anyway, I've said my piece more than I needed to. I'll shut up now and leave it up to the judges.

But, wizards/sorcerers already have more important traits to take first. Focused Mind for concentration, Magical Knack if they multiclass at all and Reactionary for initiative. Now they actually have to choose from three good choices, instead of having two automatics that fit into the two slots. Kalgor is such a mutt, he took Additional Traits feat at first level just to have four choices.

You keep going back to it becoming an "automatic choice" for a wizard. Well, the front line fighter probably needs it more. If he doesn't have a rogue in the party willing to scout on point, the fighter is the one walking point with a perception hovering around his character level. Being skill point starved, his perception may be below his character level. The paladin is in the same boat.

To tell the fighter, we are going to open up access to all these other things, but we won't open up the one you want is a bit mean. If he does take the trait, he still is not going to be catching up to the rogue because he is so skiill point starved. But he at least can be better than the animal companions in the party.

I am still voting YES to number 2, and adding YES to Capable: Perception.

Satin Knights said:

Now they actually have to choose from three good choices, instead of having two automatics that fit into the two slots.

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I really did intend to stop posting here.

What you're saying is, "If we allow Capable: Perception, then a wizard can choose between 3 must-have mechanical traits instead of just being forced to accept the 2 must-have mechanical traits that we used to have!" That's not an improvement. If anything, he's even worse off than before, because interesting RP traits are even more squeezed out by overpowered mechanical traits. It used to be that I could maybe drop one and not feel too bad; now I'm pressured to take the Additional Traits feat just so I can fit all of them.

I'm sorry, I'm unsubscribing from this thread now, because clearly I can't stop myself from responding, and it seems like the decision has more or less been made. Apologies if I've offended anyone along the way.

Nothing is a must-have. They are three good defaults if you don't have another choice you want more. Nothing in LPF is a must have. As it is now, technically, I am playing a triple caster with 12, 9 and 13 in his casting stats. And yet, on the current adventure, I am the party leader. I am even pulling off party face with zero ranks in social skills, albeit somewhat poorly. Even the talking magic item in the party has a better diplomacy than my character.

While reviewing characters I have been slinging around quite a bit of advice about changing/moving/optimizing several areas of design builds. IIRC, so far, I have not needed to suggest one trait over another, because I can see a purpose in most all of them.

If you are going to say it is a munchkin must have, lets number crunch it as they would.

For half the classes, Capable: Perception is a 1,600 gp trait. The Eyes of the Eagle trumps it at 2,500 for +5. Equivalent +4 comes out as 1,600 gp. For the other half of the classes, it is only 200 gp (cracked incandescent blue ioun). A +1 on one save that stacks with other things is 3,400 gp (cracked amber ioun). A +1 caster level is 30,000 gp (Orange Ioun, granted, not limited by Char level, but you wouldn't take the trait if not usable.). A +2 is not available by default items. A +1 Init can be bought for 500 gp(cracked dusty rose ioun stone). A +2 Init, if it were available would be 2,000 gp. There is no item available that boosts concentration, so Focused Mind is a priceless trait. Many good traits, like Dirty Fighter, have no item that can duplicate its effects. On the other hand, the Circlet of Persuasion is as effective as is turning seven skills from non-class to class skills. So, that is a "must have" item for face characters at 4,500 gp.

Another consideration is that, Perception is a skill that one or two characters in the party should be excellent at. But, not every party member has to be even decent at it. On the other hand, saving throws are an area where everyone should concentrate on being at least decent.

So, the Capable: Perception is strong, but there are several other traits that are actually more cost effective, including all three of the Streamlined Resilient traits. Focused Mind is the "must have" if you are a caster if you look at what can be purchased by other means as your top priority.

Your saying Capable: Perception is number one in power. I am saying, it is just in the top ten. I do not think it is as overpowered as you think it is. And everybody is actually listening to us.

LOL. I love it when people break things down to the actual mechanics, it puts things into perspective. I was sitting on the fence for Capable: Perception lately, but not anymore.

I am still voting YEA to number 2, but also adding my YEA to Capable: Perception.