Multipliers in addition to... addition.

Kzach · Mar 28, 2012

One of the statements made about 4e was that they wanted to make the math easier at the table. An admirable goal, but it also meant that multipliers were pretty much out the window. I'm wondering, after reading through some of the weapon and damage threads, if this is such a good idea after all?

GURPS, for instance, multiplies damage based on the leverage of the weapon. Or at least it did last time I played it. Your strength was multiplied to find the damage.

Apply this sort of logic to attributes in D&D but balance it with multipliers to increase stats as well. This is already done in point-buy, but perhaps it's not enough? An 18, for instance, should be quite difficult to get and that can be represented by the multiplier required to get it. But the returns on investment are substantial because things are multiplied by the stat bonus rather than just added.

So the difference between a 16 and an 18 would actually be quite impressive rather than just a flat +1.

I'm no math genius. I can barely remember how to do division and can't even remember the multiple tables. But I was curious to see whether or not this basic concept could be beneficial in D&DN or whether it was just a silly notion by a mathtard.

Sunseeker · Mar 28, 2012

I don't like multipliers, I don't know why, I just don't, at least not in high volume.

GSHamster · Mar 28, 2012

Well, having multipliers means that order of operation suddenly becomes very important.

(5x) +1 is very different from 5(x+1).

While with straight addition and subtraction, it really does not matter in what order you apply the modifiers.

The second element is that if you have multipliers from multiple sources, the final number can get very large, very fast.

Between those two aspects, I would say that multipliers are more trouble than they are worth.

KesselZero · Mar 28, 2012

Agreed that they're too much work. You'd be dealing with huge numbers very quickly, which would make flatter math hard to achieve. Also, 3e drove me nuts with its rule that multipliers "added"-- if you had two separate x2's to a number, that made x3, not x4. I understand why they did it, but I found it hard to remember and I never quite got a handle on all the possible interactions.

Olgar Shiverstone · Mar 28, 2012

We should quit coddling players, and put everything on logarithmic scales.

Jeff Carlsen · Mar 28, 2012

There is a small, selfish part of me that wants D&D to abandon people who can't do basic math quickly. It's the same part of me that wants it filled with archaic word choices that most people won't understand.

That aside, I still think some level of multiplication and division is useful to D&D. I don't think that Third Edition was too cumbersome in that regard. When it makes sense, use it.

howandwhy99 · Mar 28, 2012

Olgar Shiverstone said:
We should quit coddling players, and put everything on logarithmic scales.

OD&D here we come!

delericho · Mar 28, 2012

Kzach said:
One of the statements made about 4e was that they wanted to make the math easier at the table. An admirable goal, but it also meant that multipliers were pretty much out the window. I'm wondering, after reading through some of the weapon and damage threads, if this is such a good idea after all?

As GSHampster notes, it can become quite hard to balance the game if you have both additive modifiers and multipliers. Because that additional +1 no longer becomes a simple and safe addition - it may now be hit with a multiplier.

I'm no math genius. I can barely remember how to do division and can't even remember the multiple tables. But I was curious to see whether or not this basic concept could be beneficial in D&DN or whether it was just a silly notion by a mathtard.

It's not a terrible idea, provided the multipliers are kept small (x2 or x3 at most), and especially if you don't allow any stacking of multipliers.

However, even so it's true that many people find multiplication harder than simple addition. It's more error-prone and likely to slow the game down. Since I'm of the opinion it's already way too slow, I'm not in favour of adding multipliers!

(What I think would be a decent way forward, though, is various options that add dice to damage pools. This already exists, with at least some critical hits in 4e, and I think it could quite easily be expanded. Although even that should be used sparingly - adding the result of 2d4 is very slightly slower than just adding 5, and has much the same effect, so the designers would need to carefully consider whether the extra swingyness is worth the slow-down.)

Boarstorm · Mar 28, 2012

delericho said:
(What I think would be a decent way forward, though, is various options that add dice to damage pools. This already exists, with at least some critical hits in 4e.

And sneak attacks, and hunter's mark, and warlock's curse, and...

Sorry to follow the rabbit down the off-topic hole, but I find this idea appealing. People like rolling dice. Let them roll more. So long as we avoid the bucket-of-dice issues, I don't see much of a downside.

Endur · Mar 28, 2012

The issue with multipliers isn't so much the multiplier itself, as it is the balance issue.

For example, in D&D 3e (pre 3.5), orcs were deadly at low level. Why? Because CR 1/2 orcs had great axes. A great axe critical hit was 1d12 x3 + 9 (str bonus +2 x1.5 two hands = +3 x3 crit = +9)., or an average of 28.5. Enough to kill most 1st to 2nd level characters in a single lucky critical hit.

Most other monsters at low levels were not capable of killing a pc in a single hit.

In high level D&D, players and monsters gravitated towards high crit weapons (either high crit range like the Falchion, Rapier, or high multiplier). The crit bonuses become more valuable than the weapons basic damage when high level character bonuses are involved.

Players also like critical hits. It feels like a "win", so having a really big critical hit is something they like to remember. "Do you remember the time I hit the orc chief for 78 points of damage?" etc.

Multipliers in addition to... addition.

Kzach

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